to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

I have never ignored the voices of women in the indusrty, I have went to great lengths to say that a minority of women will do this by unabiguous choice and that they should not be villified for that (but they will be regardless).

We also however, should not ignore the voices of women in the industry who talk of endemic exploitation.

Well you go out and try it for yourself then.

For one I'm not anti-porn, to say I was anti-porn would be like saying I was anti-the common cold. I am concerned about the morality of industrial porn and the well documented costs involved to the women in the industry.

I doin't think I am ignoring the exploitation of women in the industry. I have always tried ot make sure that any project I am inovlved in featuers consenting adults only, discussed pay in advance, discussed exactly what is in the script and who does what to whom. I have persuaded other people to stop giving work to a particular individual whose behaviour was unacceptable (conning people and an inability to keep his hands to himself). I have contributed time and money to initiatives helping migrant sex workers.
nd I still maintain that sex work and porn are not wrong. And that the things that are wrong with them are things that were and are wrong with the rest of society first and on a much bigger scale.

You might be right. And good for you.

But in the past you have joined threads about peoples husbands becoming addicted to porn, about how it is ruining their families and lives, only to defend porn on the whole.

I understand you have a personal vested interest, and obvioulsy a great need to validate that interest, which may be telling of something in itself. This thread is the arena for that, not the realsionship threads though, which is maybe why your opinions on porn are often argued with - they are just aired in the wrong forum. I have probably been influenced by that in these debates with you - MN baggage!

"And that the things that are wrong with them are things that were and are wrong with the rest of society first and on a much bigger scale." 'Art' reflecting life reflecting art....

self validating?

MT: if I have a vested interest then so do you. With regard to other threads about peoplke's relationships, I appreciate that sometimes in the beginning I did kind of heolp hijack discussions (which is more due to me being used to a different style of forum where threads would wander off at all sorts of tangents all the time). But sometimes I do feel (with regard to relationship threads) that a different persepective on sexual issues might be helpful to people with questions or problems and isn;t that what the site is supposed to be for?

absolving of responsibility? or too harsh?

But I don't Madamez. What vested interest do I have?

And yes, this is what the site is for. But when people are obvioulsy in a great deal of pain, it's just perhaps a bit self serving to hijack for your own positive agenda.

Anyway, it was just an aside. I have no wish to villify you for your choices either. I am a 'good' feminist

I agree completly with Madamez's posts.

"But in the past you have joined threads about peoples husbands becoming addicted to porn, about how it is ruining their families and lives, only to defend porn on the whole."

As for this comment, it is this sort of thing that makes me so . People who become addicted to porn have problems with addiction (people get addicted to allsorts of things - alcohol, gambling, etc.). This is not an argument against porn. This is an argument for better education regarding addiction and better support for addicts and their families. Generally speaking, I have found that on threads where people are complaining about 'porn', it is not really porn that is the issue. It is more the disrespectfulness of their dp, for example. With the thread about the picture of a woman's bum...it was not the fact it was someone's bum that was really the issue - the poster had told her dp that she didn't approve of it in the past and yet he did it anyway, it's the disrespect that is the issue.

If my dh had an issue with me watching porn I would stop, because I respect him.

Similarly if a woman has explained how her dp's watching porn makes her feel uncomfortable or whatever they need to discuss how they can move forward past the issue. I would think that if self esteem is an issue, the woman should get some counselling and the man should agree not to watch porn out of respect for the woman's feelings.

Monkeytrousers, Have you got a particular book that is written impartially about porn and prostituion.

I am actually getting really interested in your points etc, and would like to read up on the subject, rather than having a discussion on here!

It's just a rationalisation Walnut. Whe people start saying porn is 'bad', people who consume porn, or create it think that they are being called bad people. Obvioulsy, that isn;t true. There will be bad people in porn, exploitative people especially, but not everyone will be.

It can be a degrading endeavor though. People like Madamez are perhaps the lucky ones - the unlucky ones need to be heard too, as (sorry to repeat it) they do outnumber them.

Got to go picj up Ds. Will haev a think Jofe.

Jofeb: I donlt know if there are any books that are actually impartial, but two fairly sensible ones are: In Good COmpany by Kay GOod which is about escorting from the escort's point of view, and Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures (ed Assiter/Carol) which is an anthology by various members of Feminists Against Censorship.

MT: As to vested interests, aren't you writing a dissertation on sex work or something similar? I certainly don;t think either of us is impartial on the subject.

I am investigating the biological explanations for rape, not from a feminist view, but a scientific one. This has necessarily meant looking at lots of objecvtive ethnographoc data whoch tells us quite a lot about human sexuality, the similarities between men and women, and where those begin to diverge. Not words even, but numbers. Words are imporant, and they bring out detail and nuance and differing environmental stratey, but numbers give us the bigger picture from which to start from.

I have no vested interest in any outcome, as I am only trying to get as clear (and non ideologically biased) picture of human sexuality as I can.

I have as much of an open mind as it is possible to get.

say I modestly

MT (at the risk of hijacking) I am kind of fascinated by this, I have read some stuff about it elsewhere. Are you aware of the theories that, biologically, it makes sense for women to sleep with as many men as possible when they are fertile, and that this may be behind men's pathological desire to control women's sexuality?

jeremy, i don't know why i said that, stupid of me - you are right, put in that context. Probably because ive not actually seen any.

Elizabeth, do NOT imply that my DP is a mysoginist, you know NOTHING about him and nothing about me. I am able to make my own mind up about porn and i dont need to be dictated to about how i feel about something. I said that i like porn, however i then went on to say that due to the fact that there is a great deal of exploitation in the industry i shall no longer watch it. I think that makes my position perfectly clear! I like fur, its soft and snuggly and warm, it certainly doesnt mean i am going to go out and buy a fur coat does it. You cannot present a decent argument because you are not willing to listen to the counter argument. What infuriates me the most is i actually agree with most of what you say and feel quite strongly about exploitation in porn. But to imply that every woman in the porn industry is exploited is ludicrous, as for women for sale, well, if i chose to sell my body then, its MY body and i shall sell if should i so choose (not that id get much). I do not get off on exploitation and degradation of women and i am not about to justify my reasons for liking porn to you.

What about erotic fiction, i have a book that i bought from the charity shop , something like black lace, written by women for women, there is some pretty masochistic stuff in there - ive not read it actually as the language is too twee for me, but I suppose those women who read black lace books are mysoginists (god im begining to hate that word!) as well!!

You obviously feel really very strongly about exploitation in the porn industry (understatement of the century) so why dont you, and im not being sarcastic, lobby parliment or do whatever you feel would be useful, i would certainly support you as there is definate exploitation but i think the way is to legislate to enable porn to be made (as it is never going to go away) but to protect the actresses etc. That is a more realistic approach in my mind.

BTW - i cant remember the last time i watched a porn film, was definately pre DD as i had a sort out before she was born and think the dvds ended up in the loft (i hope so, otherwise they might have found their way to the charity shops!!) I am just trying to make the point that you dont have to be a sick pervert to watch porn from time to time. Unless that is what you are accusing me of?

erm. voyeurism isn't wrong. neither is exhibitionism.

there is a huge difference between liking to watch and doing so with the consent of the person being watched and spying.

there is a huge difference between loving being watched and flashing someone in the park.

these blanket condemnations are not contributing to intelligent debate.

consent. informed consent is at the heart of this debate I think isn't it?

How would you feel if your DD chose that career path LEM?

mademez, excuse my laziness but im pushed for time, do you work in the sex industry or around it? Im genuinely interested.

MT, that is interesting about the whole rape thing too, have you found anything out yet - sorry, ive only read your last few posts. I do find that area interesting as to what promotes someone to do that sort of thing, be it date rape (which is the worst kind IMO ) or stranger rape which i guess the perpetrator has deep psychological problems to want to be doing that. What intersts me actually, and not sure if you have any info on this, male rape by normally heterosexual males is rife in prison, do you think that is just a power thing?

Madamez,

Thanks for those books - I imagine it to be pretty hard to get an impartial view in the whole industry.

Yes, women are designed to marry a very dull and stable man and then to want sex particularly when ovulating with as many sexy unstable men with good genes as possible. Probably why so many babies are their father's child.

Most rapes are of people you know, not strangers and I would be very surprised if they were anything to do with porn. I think people's sexual instincts they are largely born with rather than moulded by what they've viewed.