to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

"I daresay her motivation for being pissed off was the fact that she wasn't being renumerated for her performance."

Wow, what a fucking callous, nasty thing to say. You appear to be unable to regard her as a human being with feelings, particularly with feelings about being put on display sexually for people to take a good long voyeuristic look at.

"I do not give a flying fuck about her morals, i am not one to talk based on my past, however this woman courts publicity at every opportunity, i think you are being niave if you think she is seriously bothered by this. This also detracts from your very valid and worthwhile argument about the obvious exploitation of women in porn."

It detracts from nothing. All you've done is laid bare once again the callous, lacking in empathy stance of the pro-porn brigade.

"I like looking at porn, i like to watch anal, i have not watch bukkake or bondage films so cannot comment, i would be deeply offended by what you describe as gonzo porn, but that does not make me a mysoginist as you seem to think everyone who likes porn is. I dont want to watch the men, i like to watch the women as i guess it fuels my own personal fantasy. "

Yeah, everybody likes to watch the women. You're getting off on their exploitation and degradation.

"BUT if IF you had bothered to get down from your high horse long enough to read my posts properly you would have realised that i have stated on more than one occasion that i am not comfortable with the exploitation of women in porn and because of that i will not be watching it. I will stick to my more than adequate imagination. "

Well I'm glad you're not going to watch it any more but up there you're saying you like it, so which is it?

"My DP likes to watch porn with me, he certainly does not get off on denegrating women, i actually think he quite likes them - how strange, a man that actually likes women and admires their bodies, in your world they clearly dont exist. I am not comfortable with this argument because you insist on making it personal and draw me into making direct comments towards you. You clearly have issues and you clearly are presenting a well thought out, well researched argument, but you do need to accept that not everyone who watches porn is a woman hater!"

I don't need to accept that in the slightest. Porn is based on misogyny - the idea that women's bodies can be bought and sold for men's enjoyment. Men who use it are, like I said earlier, misogynists.

"As for exploitation, where do you buy your clothes? I personally only buy from charity shops because i have a problem with exploitation in the clothing industry, i do not however take it upon myself to slag off everyone who buys their clothes from GAP!"

I get my clothes from fair trade shops and I buy very few of them. People keep using this specious argument that if you do one bad thing, you can't criticise anything else, which again is nonsense.

With you all the way Elisbetth

norma - my understanding of feminism is that it (rightly) incorporates a broad spectrum of beliefs central to which is the concept that women are equal to men. Equal does not imply same.

"I would rather have to work twice as hard for my money than get it simply because a company is worried about being sued." - I find that a worrying statement. I presume you are against tokenism - great - however, sometimes it takes a worry about being sued for a company to act FAIRLY and in accordance with the law.

"People keep using this specious argument that if you do one bad thing, you can't criticise anything else, which again is nonsense." - I tried to say this earlier, but you have put it so much better! (It's the same if you are a vegetarian - "what, so are your shoes made of leather?" god help me)

"msl. you've addressed NOTHING in that post. and that's how you do it isn't it?"

I have addressed it.

"my point was that not all lesbian pornography is aimed at heterosexual men, neither is an imitation of heterosexuality nor is it bought by heterosexual men. i wondered where this left your argument that all pornography is about men degrading women. that pornography per se does this."

I never said that lesbian pornography was aimed at heterosexual men, I said that what they were doing was an imitation of heterosexual porn. Heterosexual pornography existed long before "real" lesbian porn came into existence. Some misguided lesbians decided to copy what they saw. It's called the pornofication of our society, where it leaks into cultures and areas where it didn't exist in any form before.

The idea behind pornography is the degradation and oppression of women. It is a tool used by men to ensure that women stay in second place, sexually serving them. Just because it is copied in by other groups doesn't detract from that initial point. And I also said earlier that even if it were true that lesbian porn was non-exploitative, it wouldn't make mainstream heterosexual pornography (the biggest market both in terms of cash generated and number of consumers) any less exploitative.

Lesbian porn does have a male audience (as well as its female one). The fact you don't know that says to me you know less about it than you think you do.

"please if you would address the point being made."

I did address your points - the fact that they are based on false premises.

"The idea behind pornography is the degradation and oppression of women. It is a tool used by men to ensure that women stay in second place, sexually serving them"

tosh. the idea is to get sexual pleasure for the consumer.

""People keep using this specious argument that if you do one bad thing, you can't criticise anything else, which again is nonsense." - I tried to say this earlier, but you have put it so much better! (It's the same if you are a vegetarian - "what, so are your shoes made of leather?" god help me)"

Oh yeah, very, very ANNOYING.

It's their consciences pricking. They haven't got an argument so they go on the attack. Nobody has to be consistent across the board in order to justify doing the right thing in some areas.

"And how many women raped by their husbands ever get justice? The answer is incredibly few.

Women are not protected from sexual violence by laws which is why the claim that a bit of union organising and some regulation (what form would this regulation take by the way) is so incredible."

surely then by that reasoning we shouldn't bother having these laws. Perhaps we should ban marriage so that women can't be raped by husbands.

Do you not think that a society in which porn is regulated and gives the women starring in porn films rights also gives them a better standing within society. Do you not think that by changing society's view about trading sex as a commodity (and by that I mean changing it so that society does not look down on it) then gives all women more chance of getting rape convictions and therefore getting justice. Surely the only way to increase the number of convictions for rape is to make society realise that every woman has the right to say no at any time and that there is no shame in reporting rape (how many women do not report rapes because they worry about their past being used against them?)

"the idea is to get sexual pleasure for the consumer."

Yup men get sexual pleasure from using and degrading women. Scary.

Exactly. How could we progress in the right direction if we are to be stifled in this way? Sounds like an excuse for maintaining the status quo...

LEM - You said that gag porn makes you laugh - why is that?

Do you find humour in someone choking generally? If the person was choking on some food for instance, is that funny?

Or is it funny because it's a penis she's choking on? Is it because she looks so utterly without dignity? It surely looks farcical to see a naked woman on the verge of vomiting because she has a penis rammed so far into her mouth.

The things that make it amusing to you are probably the same things thast make it sexually arousing for those who enjoy gag porn.

I just dont understand how anyone could see that as anything but upsetting - knowing that these men are getting off on seeing a woman being humiliated and in physical discomfort/pain.

the women arn't degraded - the sexual please ure is not from degredation its from watching people fucking - people fucking isn't wrong - there is no egredation involved unless you consider fucking to be degrading.

Sorry, that was obv in answer to "Nobody has to be consistent across the board in order to justify doing the right thing in some areas. "

No one has suggested that people having sex is wrong - why does this keep coming up?

That's bollocks Custy - 'fucking' does not even begin to cover the acts that are being discussed.

....nor the context, nor the motivation behind them.

This whole thread is nuts. I'm beginning to suspect that Melanie Philips is behind it all.

i am not responding to your gag porn conversation with another mumsnetter JV. calm down theres a love.

sorry that should read - i was not responding to the gag porn stuff. rather than i am not going to with stomping of feet. i was responding to a comment elizabeth made.

It's like a cross between "The Moral Maze" and a chimpanzee's tea party.

I didn't think you were.
I was responding to your post.

"Only 10 years ago there existed a sort of self-policing amongst women whereby men wouldn?t be given the time of day if they disclosed that they looked at material which referred to women as sluts, talked about ripping up their insides or destroying their pussy"

This really sums up why I'm so suprised at how many women here will defend porn to the nth degree, including acts of vicious torture against women.

I am going to leave this conversation because the pro-porn side have addressed frankly nothing that has been brought up here, insisting that their exceptions (like lesbian or gay porn or hubby practising his porno-direction skillz with the home video camera) prove that the industry as a whole isn't about degrading and hurting both the women in pornography and women as a group, and just plain ignoring any FACTS that get in the way of their fanatasies about how marvellous porn is. Instead we get the same tired old myths banged out again and again, as if repeating them would somehow counteract the arguments and evidence that has been presented here.

It does come down to empathy, either you think it's OK for women to be bought, sold and used by men for their pleasure or you don't. The facts are on the anti-porn side because no industry that treats human beings in this way could possibly be ethical or good for the people it used in its enterprises. Women are hurt by porn, both in the making of it and by its existence. Women are damaged by it. Most women in porn don't come out whole, they come out drug-addicted, with PTSD, poor and sometimes even dead. That is because they are used (or to put it in the words of a porn director "used up").

The good thing however is that there are obviously quite a number of women who are willing to face the reality and to speak out against it refusing to accept that this is just what we have to put up with because some men like it.

JV your verbal vitriol was justified - forgive my naivety in thinking you coulnt possibly be responding to my post at that level.

OK one more thing -

"watching people fucking - people fucking isn't wrong - there is no egredation involved unless you consider fucking to be degrading."

First off it's voyeurism, give it its real name. "Voyeurism isn't wrong" sounds a bit different doesn't it. Who wants to be a voyeur after all?

Secondly "people fucking" sounds like two people who both want to do it when in fact in pornography you are watching someone being paid to be fucked which as everybody knows is called prostition. Prostitution is most definitely wrong.

The fact that you can't even grasp these basic realities, is yet another example of why I really, really have to leave this thread.

Ok, just a response to that last post Elizabetth. Voyeurism and prostitution are wrong in your opinion. These are not 'basic realities' as you put it. They are not facts, they are opinions.

I don't think there is anything wrong with either as long as no-one is forced to do anything against their wishes.