to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

MT - the link you provided was interesting (sorry I missed it earlier but I was away this weekend...I didn't read all the links as I was trying to catch up with the 430 messages). However from what I read on it...it seems that tighter regulation is needed. No-one is suggesting that women should be forced to live or work under those conditions.

"The brothel prostitutes often live in prison-like conditions, locked in or forbidden to leave."
"One pimp starved a woman he considered too fat"

These should absolutely not be allowed. These are basic human rights issues.

"Then there is the fact that legal prostitutes seem to lose the rights ordinary citizens enjoy. From 1987, prostitutes in Nevada have been legally required to be tested once a week for sexually transmitted diseases and monthly for HIV. Customers are not required to be tested. The women must present their medical clearance to the police station and be finger-printed, even though such registration is detrimental: if a woman is known to work as a prostitute, she may be refused health insurance, face discrimination in housing or future employment, or endure accusations of unfit motherhood. In addition, there are countries that will not permit registered prostitutes to settle, so their movement is severely restricted."

Again, this is society viewing prostitutes as 'second class' citizens. I believe prostitutes should be entitled to the same opportunities as any other woman.

I do think it is a very closely related issue though MT: particularly in that, while horrible abuses of women do go on in marriage (and no one disputes that) many women also have happy marriages that they enter into out of their own free will...

Have I missed the bit where someone was suggesting prostitutes be deprived any rights? That is certainly not my opinion and I haven't garnered it from this thread.

Madamez - are you saying that if a married woman believes that the porn industry is generally unfavourable to women, she is a hypocrite?

I don't think your analogy works. I don't think people are trying to ban sex. People are speaking out against abuses and exploitation that takes place in the pornography industry.

Plenty of people speak out and offer support to women who are abused by their husbands. What is disturbing is that there are women here who won't acknowledge that any abuse is taking place. So, let's look at the issue using the marriage analogy.

Imagine we're talking about women who are beaten unconscious by their husbands. Imagine if some of the responses on here were:

"She?s asking for it if she stays with him. Perhaps she likes it. She consented to the marriage. It's not doing any harm. It's normal for a husband to hurt his wife, if that's what they both want. She knows what she is doing. She is a grown women who has made her own choices, if she didn't want to be hurt, she wouldn't stay in the marriage"

There would be a little more than an outcry if those types of responses emerged.

Walnutshell - the link MT provided regarding legalised prostitution in Nevada suggested that the rights of prostitutes were less than those of 'normal' women. I was merely responding to the article by saying that legalising prostitution should not mean prostitutes lose rights. I was trying to point out that the article only shows that stricter regulation and enforcement of legislation was needed.

Right - my fault for not reading the link. Thanks.

Ekra - I believe Madamez's point was that while abuse happens in some marriages there are other perfectly happy marriages...similarly there is some abuse in porn but there are some porn stars who are perfectly happy in there job. She's saying it's not all bad.

ekra - "Only 10 years ago there existed a sort of self-policing amongst women whereby men wouldn?t be given the time of day if they disclosed that they looked at material which referred to women as sluts, talked about ripping up their insides or destroying their pussy"

Yes, I thought that too. I was beginning to wonder if I'd imagined it... Post-feminism for you!

Ekra - I also believe that not on pro-porn person has said that abuse and exploitation in the porn industry is ok. I believe they have all called for that abuse and exploitation to be ended by means of legal rights for porn stars and regulation of the industry. (which follows Madamez's analogy with marriage, whereby it is not illegal for a husband to force his wife to have sex, etc.)

But in any situation it's not all bad - surely the point of the debate is the very abusive and damaging side of porn. The 'nice bit' (if you like) where everyone is participating freely isn't really relevant except that it blinds people to what is going on because no one wants to be even remotely linked to something so horrific.

not one

The 'nice bit' is relevant. Elizabetth has on many occasions refused to believe there is any 'nice bit' out there. It was claimed (I think by E tho I may be wrong) all porn is degrading to women.

Oh well, Orm, feminism has had it's day and been declared useless for women and society and - guess what - a lot of women believe it.

Ah, yes, sorry (again) - forgot about that norma. I do understand her point about porn generally but I think it has been overused to the detriment of the rest of her argument.

People (and all animals) enter into relationships for joint evolutionary reasons - mostly to have children. Porn is a means of entertainment, third party entertainment at that.

Of course walnutshell. And the sooner I manage to get that into my thick head the easier I'll find the world I suppose...

I feel exactly the same as you Orm. I'm sure we're not the only ones but I struggle to find a like-minded soul. Some days I can't read the newspaper for fear of how antagonised I will get. Ah well, that's another thread.

Just on a side note regarding feminism. I am absolutely not a feminist in the usual sense. I do not want equal pay to a man, for example. I would rather have to work twice as hard for my money than get it simply because a company is worried about being sued. I don't believe in equality because I believe there are fundamental differences between men and women.

I should point out I do not think men are superior or women inferior. Just that they are different.

Equality does not rule out differences between men and women norma. It prevents people from treating them differently where inappropriate.

MT, I can't believe that you cannot recognise "stridently anti-porn" as a description of some of the views, not specifically yours, expounded on this thread!

"staggered that you think lesbian porn is for men (i'm talking about lesbian porn, films made in the main by lesbians for lesbian consumption.). staggered that you think it is an imitation of heterosexual normality."

I didn't say they were made for men. I pointed out that a lot of men bought it. That's true. A lot of men do buy "On our Backs"

"that is such an ignorant position. you seem to view pornography as exclusively heterosexual. and if it isn't, you cannot use the paying men exploiting poor degraded women argument so it seems you can't possibly acknowledge that there might be pornography out there that by it's very nature does not fit that template."

Well obviously I don't as I acknowledged the existence of lesbian pornography.

"this does smack of an argument which is being made about pornography but in fact which is veiling some incredibly narrow definitions of what is 'acceptable' sexually."

Porn isn't sex. And don't bother trying to paint me as a prude. That's a bullshit argument too.

"if lesbian porn is a poor imitation of heterosexuality does it follow that you believe that lesbian sexuality (whatever that is....sexuality cannot be pinned down to some normative definition and that is the whole point) is a poor imitation also? or do you think that whilst there are lesbians doing their thing, a thing which is not an imitation of heterosexual sex, they are not depicting it on film because they are not interested in viewing it?"

Lesbian sexuality doesn't equal lesbian pornography. The fact you can't separate the two is your problem not mine.

"either way your stance is ridiculous."

It's not ridiculous it makes sense and it has substance. Unlike your arguments against it.

"Ekra - I also believe that not on pro-porn person has said that abuse and exploitation in the porn industry is ok. I believe they have all called for that abuse and exploitation to be ended by means of legal rights for porn stars and regulation of the industry. (which follows Madamez's analogy with marriage, whereby it is not illegal for a husband to force his wife to have sex, etc.)"

And how many women raped by their husbands ever get justice? The answer is incredibly few.

Women are not protected from sexual violence by laws which is why the claim that a bit of union organising and some regulation (what form would this regulation take by the way) is so incredible.

pmsl. you've addressed NOTHING in that post. and that's how you do it isn't it?

my point was that not all lesbian pornography is aimed at heterosexual men, neither is an imitation of heterosexuality nor is it bought by heterosexual men. i wondered where this left your argument that all pornography is about men degrading women. that pornography per se does this.

please if you would address the point being made.

"I daresay her motivation for being pissed off was the fact that she wasn't being renumerated for her performance."

Wow, what a fucking callous, nasty thing to say. You appear to be unable to regard her as a human being with feelings, particularly with feelings about being put on display sexually for people to take a good long voyeuristic look at.

"I do not give a flying fuck about her morals, i am not one to talk based on my past, however this woman courts publicity at every opportunity, i think you are being niave if you think she is seriously bothered by this. This also detracts from your very valid and worthwhile argument about the obvious exploitation of women in porn."

It detracts from nothing. All you've done is laid bare once again the callous, lacking in empathy stance of the pro-porn brigade.

"I like looking at porn, i like to watch anal, i have not watch bukkake or bondage films so cannot comment, i would be deeply offended by what you describe as gonzo porn, but that does not make me a mysoginist as you seem to think everyone who likes porn is. I dont want to watch the men, i like to watch the women as i guess it fuels my own personal fantasy. "

Yeah, everybody likes to watch the women. You're getting off on their exploitation and degradation.

"BUT if IF you had bothered to get down from your high horse long enough to read my posts properly you would have realised that i have stated on more than one occasion that i am not comfortable with the exploitation of women in porn and because of that i will not be watching it. I will stick to my more than adequate imagination. "

Well I'm glad you're not going to watch it any more but up there you're saying you like it, so which is it?

"My DP likes to watch porn with me, he certainly does not get off on denegrating women, i actually think he quite likes them - how strange, a man that actually likes women and admires their bodies, in your world they clearly dont exist. I am not comfortable with this argument because you insist on making it personal and draw me into making direct comments towards you. You clearly have issues and you clearly are presenting a well thought out, well researched argument, but you do need to accept that not everyone who watches porn is a woman hater!"

I don't need to accept that in the slightest. Porn is based on misogyny - the idea that women's bodies can be bought and sold for men's enjoyment. Men who use it are, like I said earlier, misogynists.

"As for exploitation, where do you buy your clothes? I personally only buy from charity shops because i have a problem with exploitation in the clothing industry, i do not however take it upon myself to slag off everyone who buys their clothes from GAP!"

I get my clothes from fair trade shops and I buy very few of them. People keep using this specious argument that if you do one bad thing, you can't criticise anything else, which again is nonsense.