to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

Have you just stopped by the PC on your way to refilling your punch bowl and MCing the nu-rave dance off in you lounge floopowder?

Elizabeth -are you still around?

Nope, I've just got in from work and having some down time before bed. I am very suprised that this thread is still going on. Wouldnt mind going to a rave tho its been a few years since I've been to one of those.

I gueuss Elizabeth has gone to bed. Oh well, speak to her tomorrow.

It is tomorrow Champers!

floopowder - eagerly awaiting your really interesting new thread...

I'm not misunderstanding you LEM. Paris Hilton got very angry in a porn shop recently because they were advertising the video made of her. She is clearly not happy about it.

I daresay her motivation for being pissed off was the fact that she wasn't being renumerated for her performance.

I like looking at porn, i like to watch anal, gagging porn just makes me laugh, but that does not make me a mysoginist as you seem to think everyone who likes porn is.
I dont want to watch the men, i like to watch the women as i guess it fuels my own personal fantasy. BUT if IF you had bothered to get down from your high horse long enough to read my posts properly you would have realised that i have stated on more than one occasion that i am not comfortable with the exploitation of women in porn and because of that i will not be watching it. I will stick to my more than adequate imagination. My DP likes to watch porn with me, he certainly does not get off on denegrating women, i actually think he quite likes them - how strange, a man that actually likes women and admires their bodies, in your world they clearly dont exist. I am not comfortable with this argument because you insist on making it personal and draw me into making direct comments towards you. You clearly have issues and you clearly are presenting a well thought out, well researched argument, but you do need to accept that not everyone who watches porn is a woman hater!

As for exploitation, where do you buy your clothes? I personally only buy from charity shops because i have a problem with exploitation in the clothing industry, i do not however take it upon myself to slag off everyone who buys their clothes from GAP!

I'm not misunderstanding you LEM. Paris Hilton got very angry in a porn shop recently because they were advertising the video made of her. She is clearly not happy about it.

I daresay her motivation for being pissed off was the fact that she wasn't being renumerated for her performance. I do not give a flying fuck about her morals, i am not one to talk based on my past, however this woman courts publicity at every opportunity, i think you are being niave if you think she is seriously bothered by this. This also detracts from your very valid and worthwhile argument about the obvious exploitation of women in porn.

I like looking at porn, i like to watch anal, i have not watch bukkake or bondage films so cannot comment, i would be deeply offended by what you describe as gonzo porn, but that does not make me a mysoginist as you seem to think everyone who likes porn is. I dont want to watch the men, i like to watch the women as i guess it fuels my own personal fantasy. BUT if IF you had bothered to get down from your high horse long enough to read my posts properly you would have realised that i have stated on more than one occasion that i am not comfortable with the exploitation of women in porn and because of that i will not be watching it. I will stick to my more than adequate imagination. My DP likes to watch porn with me, he certainly does not get off on denegrating women, i actually think he quite likes them - how strange, a man that actually likes women and admires their bodies, in your world they clearly dont exist. I am not comfortable with this argument because you insist on making it personal and draw me into making direct comments towards you. You clearly have issues and you clearly are presenting a well thought out, well researched argument, but you do need to accept that not everyone who watches porn is a woman hater!

As for exploitation, where do you buy your clothes? I personally only buy from charity shops because i have a problem with exploitation in the clothing industry, i do not however take it upon myself to slag off everyone who buys their clothes from GAP!

"As for exploitation, where do you buy your clothes? I personally only buy from charity shops because i have a problem with exploitation in the clothing industry, i do not however take it upon myself to slag off everyone who buys their clothes from GAP!"

LEM - it always troubles me when people decide that you can't have an opinion about something unless you live according to an impossible set of rules. I don't think this thread has presented an argument simply about whether loving couple A watch consenting couple B having a shag on screen. It's much more about the wider context in which porn operates and a very relevant comment on a society that accepts anything in the pursuit of financial gain or sexual gratification.

This is a fascinating debate and I am writing mostly in support of Elizabetths arguments.. It appears to be a debate with many geay areas. I am happy to acknowledge those gray areas but it is disturbing to me that there are a number of pro-pornography celebrators here who will not acknowledge the grey areas and they are happy with an ?anything goes? approach.

Men must be pissing themselves laughing that they?ve managed to get women to champion and defend their abuse of women.

Only 10 years ago there existed a sort of self-policing amongst women whereby men wouldn?t be given the time of day if they disclosed that they looked at material which referred to women as sluts, talked about ripping up their insides or destroying their pussy!

I fear that as misogynistic pornography becomes more mainstream (which it has if Nuts and Zoo are anything to go by) by the time my daughters are at University, they?ll be thought of as prudes by their fellow females if they don?t participate in the campus ?beach babe, writhe about a pole in your bikini and compare your tits, stage show? And if it becomes so very normalised, how are my daughters even going to discriminate between what is degrading and what is expected of them by everyone else?

Oh yes, but it?s just a bit of harmless fun

HEAR HEAR EKRA

DaddyJ... do you mean to tell me that this government has made a big hoo-hah about a piece of legislation on the back of a media storm, and then gone on to bury it quietly when the attention dies down??

How very unlike them.

"I have made up my mind about what my argument is. Pornography is prostitution by proxy, men pay other men to fuck women for them and degrade them. A whole lot of things flow from that including judgements about those particular men's characters."

Thank you for clarifying that Elizabetth, I think it was starting to get lost with all the questions and comments.

I agree with most of what you say. If we define prostitution as being paid for sex, which is generally regarded as the definition, then yes pornography is prostitution by proxy. Admittedly it is 'dressed up' and appears less seedy than a woman walking the streets (to many people) but ultimately it is someone being paid for sex.

As approx. 72-73% of the viewers of porn are male, I would generally go along with it being men who pay for porn. I would also say that they are paying men (since I believe the majority of directors/producers are male) to produce the porn. I'd also agree that in general the porn is of the form where a woman gets fucked.

However I don't really agree that the woman is being degraded. I guess this is the only part of your argument that I disagree with. I don't feel that the sexual acts in themselves are degrading to women, unless the women are forced into them. I am willing to admit though that a lot of porn actresses are taken advantage of, by which I mean they feel they have to do certain things in order to make money. This is why I feel there should be more regulation, such as that suggested by Madamez earlier.

I would be interested though to know whether you find sexual acts such as ATM, blow jobs, anal are degrading in general or just in porn. I'm trying to determine if it's the fact the women are paid for these acts that make it degrading or whether it is the acts themselves. I'm wondering whether it would be considered degrading in each of the following circumstances:

1. a consenting couple doing those acts in their own home, privately.
2. a consenting couple doing those acts in their own home and filming it for private use
3. a consenting couple doing those acts in their own home and filming it...then releasing it via the internet for general viewing.
4. consenting porn stars doing those acts for money and it being released for general viewing.

Ladidadi - No one, I think, is "stridently anti-porn", I'm certainly not; it's more complex than that.

Norma, Elizabeth isn't anti-sex. I think you are missing the point about industrial porn, not home grown free porn.

Yes, it is the levels of complexity that seem to have made the debate what it is on this thread. I suspect a lot of posters who describe themselves as pro-pron would agree with Elizabetth's comments if they could put to one side the simple issue of whether or not one likes to watch a consenting couple (or more) have sex (in whatever way).

staggered that you think lesbian porn is for men (i'm talking about lesbian porn, films made in the main by lesbians for lesbian consumption.). staggered that you think it is an imitation of heterosexual normality.

that is such an ignorant position. you seem to view pornography as exclusively heterosexual. and if it isn't, you cannot use the paying men exploiting poor degraded women argument so it seems you can't possibly acknowledge that there might be pornography out there that by it's very nature does not fit that template.

this does smack of an argument which is being made about pornography but in fact which is veiling some incredibly narrow definitions of what is 'acceptable' sexually.

if lesbian porn is a poor imitation of heterosexuality does it follow that you believe that lesbian sexuality (whatever that is....sexuality cannot be pinned down to some normative definition and that is the whole point) is a poor imitation also? or do you think that whilst there are lesbians doing their thing, a thing which is not an imitation of heterosexual sex, they are not depicting it on film because they are not interested in viewing it?

either way your stance is ridiculous.

"Norma, Elizabeth isn't anti-sex. I think you are missing the point about industrial porn, not home grown free porn."

MT, I'm just trying to establish whether it is the money aspect or the 'degradation' that is the issue. I can't understand why it is degrading for a porn star to do those sexual acts if it not degrading for a couple to do them unless there is an issue with the fact they are paid. If that is the case then really the discussion is about whether people should be allowed to pay for sex, rather than the discussion being about women being degraded by porn.

I just feel the debate is going in circles...if an argument is made regarding the acts themselves not being degrading, the anti-ponr seem to respond by commenting on the money aspect (in that women only do it because they are desperate for money). If a counter argument is made about the money, the anti-porn people go back to saying the acts are degrading. I'm simply trying to clarify which is the actual issue.

Well just ask yourself why prostitutes are vilified in all societies.

Soph, most mainstream industrial porn is for male hetrosexuals, and most lesbian depictions in these are of male lesbian fantasy.

That isn't to say 'real' lesbian porn exists, just that is has a minimal market share.

"Well just ask yourself why prostitutes are vilified in all societies."

Actually I'd be more tempted to ponder why society views prostitutes in this way. Personally I would like to see prostitution legalised, in order to create a safe environment for these women. I think it is the narrow-mindedness of society that vilifies these women. If it were seen as more acceptable by society then perhaps these women would feel able to report rapes/assaults against them without feeling that no-one will care.

Did you read the link I posted to the article about legalised prostitution in the US?

I thought the same as you, but this gave me pause link

I think what generally happens after prostitution is legalised is that politicians wash their hands of these women - and it does not halt women trafficking either.

I read a statistic the other day - not sure what it was in - that it is very likely that 1-10 men who visit prostitutes are raping women forced into the trade.

What was alarming is that in a study, only about 3% said this would stop them - they were more likely to have pause if the woman was unattractive or they were fearful of disease.

Those of you who are so anti-porn and sex work: what are your views on marriage? Given that marriage has long involved the buying and selling of women and even now something like one in four women are or have been violently abused by their husbands...

That is an issue. It is a seperate one, and an even more compelx one than we are having here. The bartered bride, female circumsision (which is a way of ensuring the verginity of such women, are related but seperate issues. We shouldn't muddy the water too much if we want to feel we are having a constructive debate.

aplos for typos