to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

Thanks Elizabeth. My man is defo a porn addict.

Sophable, you still don't seem to be able to get out of the firing questions mode. How about you answer your own questions then I'll address your arguments. If you think something contradicts my reasoning then go ahead and make the argument but I'm not doing your work for you.

LEM, what you've said about Paris Hilton is what people say all the time about women who have been victimised. No empathy and a lot of misogyny on display.

im not about to read over a thousand threads, i was merely trying to understand your viewpoint, however if you would prefer me to remain ignorant? There ARE women who have made ALOT of money out of porn, Anna someone or other is an example. However i do tend to agree that women do get exploited which is wrong.

IF i had the figure for it, which i dont, and DP had fimed us (he has but we deleted it in a fit of giggles) and i was happy with the results then i would be happy to post it online, but perhaps im just an exhibitionist perv.

You clearly are deliberately misunderstanding me, i cant be bothered

"you could have my finger for a million - thats the personal choice. but i wouldnt fuckon camera for a million - again my personal choice. but i wouldnt take away the right of other people who wanted to earn money that way to do so."

The question is what kind of a person wants to see someone having their finger chopped off? What kind of a person wants to watch a woman gagging on a penis or in bukkake, or having two penises forced into her rectum?

I quoted a porn viewer up there who stated quite directly that it was the degradation of the woman that turned him on. What does that say about him?

What does it say about men that they feel the need to pay other men to f*ck women and then watch the results? That they need to see women sexually objectified and serving them?

misogyny. Is it irony that Women can not be empowered to work in the sex industry without their being a sadistic undertone?

opps that was a question....we arn;t supposed to ask those....in a ....dis..cusi..on

I'm not misunderstanding you LEM. Paris Hilton got very angry in a porn shop recently because they were advertising the video made of her. She is clearly not happy about it.

You've ignored that and used a lot of slippery misogynistic arguments (Oh. My. God. She's been in magaazines) to justify what was done to her. Every woman who has been hurt gets the brush off and nobody wants to address the men who are creating the demand for this treatment of our sex.

Thanks Elizabeth. It makes me hate porn more but DH loves it

your not playing by your own rules - and thats not fair. you asked 3 questions there.

to which my answer wouls be - make your mind up what your argument is. So now its about how seedy the viewer must be.

anything 'forced' and non consensual s wrong and i dont think anyone here would argue otherwise.

Men who like the degredation of women are to be dispised - this i have already argued below if you care to read. As long as the Degredation you are talking about is actual and not a sub text to mean porn as a genre.

That is the question I've asked again and again in this thread custardo that only one person bothered to answer (and to be honest her answer was complete bollocks).

I've answered loads of questions on these threads (go back and check) and I'm happy to do so if I think people are really interested in engaging with discussion and not just barking out questions then sitting back and demanding they be answered. If people want to talk about lesbian porn or whatever then MAKE AN ARGUMENT.

I have made up my mind about what my argument is. Pornography is prostitution by proxy, men pay other men to fuck women for them and degrade them. A whole lot of things flow from that including judgements about those particular men's characters.

Also those questions were rhetorical. They constitute an argument even if nobody does choose (that's what choice means, where people have real options, not the bullshit pretence of "choice" in porn) to answer them.

So no word on lesbian porn then?

I'd say that if women do it with other women, then nobody's exploiting anybody, by your argument.

What do you mean lesbian porn? I am curious?

Mainstream lesbian porn is created by men for men.

The other stuff is sadly lesbians imitating the worst of heteronormativity. Also a lot of men are consumers of that kind of pornography too.

Even if lesbian porn was non-exploitative it still wouldn't undermine any of the arguments I've made about mainstream heterosexual pornography which comprises the vast majority of pornography created and viewed.

No word on homosexual porn either, I asked that in the first thread

E asks questions but then refuses to answer

Elizabeth -Would you have sex with a woman?

so women are just too thick to realise they are being forced into something that they have no choice over. all women in the sex industry are too stupid to realise that ? women have no power when it comes to the sex industry - the services they offer they offer becuase really they would rather be working as a doctor but havent got the money.

well i think thats a capitalist bullshit choice we all make - i chose not to fuck on camera and make lots of money being subjugated by a male dominated industy weiling its power over poor defenseless me. i chose instead to be poor.

i think its a bullshit argument to imply that women have no choice. they do. i think your whole argument disenfranchises women and their choices and their lifestyles in the sex industry.

I dont get why E keeps being asked to explain her own sexuality/sex life.
What does that have to do with the general debate?
Also, it's quite unfair to expect her to answer all questions when, apart from anything else, she is mostly arguing her points single handedly (which I dont think is indicative of the ratio of views held - it's just that she has super human stamina - I for one just looked at the thread early on and thought 'I can't be arsed').

her sexuality or that of anyone else is indeed not at question here and has nothing to do with the debate

i rather think its swings and roundabouts - at the moment there are more people arguing in the defense of porn - but earlier there was only a couple and quite a lot of anti.

It's a sad replacement for the real thing isn't it?

I used to buy porn when i was a wide-eyed teenager but haven't touched it since i discovered the real thing.

I think i am in a minority though.

"E asks questions but then refuses to answer"

You're wrong (or lying) I've answered lots of questions.

It appears that certain people ask questions becasue they can't be bothered to construct even the semblance of an argument.

"so women are just too thick to realise they are being forced into something that they have no choice over. all women in the sex industry are too stupid to realise that ? women have no power when it comes to the sex industry - the services they offer they offer becuase really they would rather be working as a doctor but havent got the money."

No women make the decisions they feel are right for them within the very limited circumstances our male-dominated society affords women. That doesn't make anybody stupid, it just makes society unequal and unkind to people in desperate situations.

Do you need money to become a doctor? I'm not sure what that argument is supposed to mean.

"well i think thats a capitalist bullshit choice we all make - i chose not to fuck on camera and make lots of money being subjugated by a male dominated industy weiling its power over poor defenseless me. i chose instead to be poor."

Most women in pornography do not make a lot of money unless they retain the rights to their films (and I only know of Jenna Jameson who did that and it appeared to be more the work of her husband) so this rich or poor argument doesn't hold any water.

"i think its a bullshit argument to imply that women have no choice. they do. i think your whole argument disenfranchises women and their choices and their lifestyles in the sex industry."

I think you are blind to the circumstances a lot of women who go into porn find themselves in. I don't disenfranchise anybody. The porn industry does that to women portraying us as secondary beings designed to sexually service or be degraded by men.

I want to know what those who are stridently anti-porn would like to see happen in real-life?

I think that the only way to go is to have a highly regulated and very transparent porn industry to ensure that all pornography prodecued is consensual and safe for the performers who are properly renumerated along with education in a much wider context. It may sem a bit chicken and egg but I think that the only way to prevent the very degrading/abusive imagery been made would be to change societal views about women in general. Even then what one woman views as abhorrent may be perfectly acceptable and sexually exciting for another.

Another point I have is about who, ie what demographic, views the pornography that is described as particularly demeaning to the women involved? I wonder if it is angry young men who feel disenfranchised and disillusioned in today's society. Young men who are out of work (or see no need for work), who feel no role for them as a father to their offspring etc etc? This isn't meant to excuse anyone's behaviour but perhaps to make us think about what can be done.

Ok, I'll ask again

How does gay (man) porn affect us poor meek unable to think woman if ALL porn is bad (in your eyes)

Is this STILL going on!!! How boring you lot are.