to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

oh not jsut the pro pron ones

OBM I think there are lots of studies out there, I just doubt that they 'prove' anything one way or the other. It seems commonsensicalistic to me to say that watching violent porn will make men (or, at least, some men) more likely to act out their sexual urges in a violent way. I mean, how many of us stop our kids from watching television that contains portrayals of aggressive behaviour because we don't want them to mimic the behaviour they see?

Oh, and here you all are back again Talk about addictive!!

tried... not... to... post...

Yes, agree with normabutty. Just because some aspects of something might be regarded by some as more dreadful doesn't mean you then tar the rest with the same brush. I don't believe people are sufficiently affected by what they see or view whether it's a violent James Bond movie or sado-masochistic sex or whatever that we should ban images. It's a sledgehammer to crack a nut even assuming there is a nut there to crack. I assume most men have or do look at porn. I am not sure of the stats for women. Most men don't then expect all women to do XYZ and most men's views on sexuality are probably more moulded by the relationships they have had or how they were made, whether gay, bi or whatever, than what they've read.

I am watching...

norma hiyaah.

1. I was trying to say although i am concerned about individuals - my bigger concern is the whole of the rest of the female world.

I think individual suffering can sometimes be a distraction strategy for both pro- and anti-porn feminists) 2 we\'re already in disagreement about the extent to which gonzo's tropes are/have always been mainstream and we don't seem able to come to an agreement on that. cf Daddyj 3 i think individual men might not come away with that thought - but nevertheless it is certainly the message that gonzo porn brings to the world, and imo (but debatably) the message that some, more mainstream porn offers. 4 of course.

Is Martin Amis going to show up?

i stop my kids from watching things that are not age appropriate - so would and did let my kids watch toma nd jerry beet shit out of eat other - they didn;t beat shit out of other kids becuase of my fantastic parenting.

there are always and will always be unstable people that will take things they see on telly and act on it - the question is how far should we legislate and in the process curtail the freedom of others.

This one's for Madamez because she ignored it the last time around I posted it (I think Nina Hartley might be a bit of a heroine of hers) -

"Modern porn has become increasingly savage. "You're seeing more of these videos of women getting dragged on their faces, and spit on, and having their heads dunked in the toilet," says even pro-porn campaigner Nina Hartley."

"I also don't think men who watch porn, be it gonzo or any other type, see women as wanting to be hurt/humiliated."

That's not what I said Norma I said what does it say about men and boys who watch this sort of stuff (and a good number of them do whatever the deniers try to claim) that they want to see women hurt and humiliated. Not one porn defender has picked up on that. They don't want to think about it because the answer is really frightening. What would people think of whites wanting to watch black people treated in this way? Or gentiles getting off to jews being treated in this way (oh and Nazi porn is a sub-genre BTW).

Martin Amis is still too traumatised by Mr. Monster.
And Blake's actresses seem to have made an impression on him, too.

This thread is irresistible, policywonk lol

MT, what I was trying to ask in my previous post:
Is it possible to be an ethical porn consumer?

Un-hunh. Butactually, trying to be calm contained and considerate, Pol, iyswim.

really the violence studies are a nobrainer. it's The Sun wot needs studying, and all that vanilla stuff that is sooo impossible to argue against because it just shows 2 consenting adults having fun...

Have you read Julie Bindel on porn, OBM?

obm, not sure whether you saw MT's post earlier,
the one about studies showing that the majority
of men are NOT turned on by rape imagery.

Similar studies must exist for different scenarios.

sorry daddyj thought yours was saying no research done yet.. "
What we need is some way of finding out whether
consumption of such porn actually changes men's
view of women and their behaviour towards them."

bit confused now.

Also suggest new MN acronym.

FFSAYUM?

christopher, how fabulous if so..
Fight, fight..
dyou think they'd settle it with naked Lawrentian wrestling?

Elizabeth I really admire you. I wish I was married to you - joking.

My DH is a typical porn addict, takes photos of womens ass, (read thread below).

No seriously, I really admire you and I wish there were more women like you around, I really do. I hate porn myself but DH loves it. Why oh why do men love porn and from what I gather about porn the rougher the better .

obm, you are broadening my vocabulary.

Sorry about the confusion.
I have not seen the studies, MT gave us a link
to book, but I don't think they tested before/after porn consumption.

DJ ? What were you trying to ask? I dunno. I am brain dead after bashing it off the wall so many times.

Don't have any specific books but have read this and that about it in different books.

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that porn makes psychologically healthy men rape but there is evidence that men with explicit or even latent and as yet unexpressed proclivities can be emboldened by it - obsessional behaviour is an important factor too. There is also evidence that levels of violence or specific acts committed in rape are linked to prevailing porn 'fashions'. There is an element of copy catting there.

And of young men?s first sexual experience being via these ?performances? of female sexuality, which it is feared will lead them to expect that from real girls. It?s cultural too. France has had a problem with gang rape in the projects, for example.

I think porn, or a sexualised culture can obviously can influence the people, male and women who are exposed to it. The question is how much.

no policy re J bindel - book or articles?

ChampagneAndFlowers there are often heartbreaking threads posted on MN about male partners becoming addicted to internet porn and the awful carnage it wreaks on the intimacy and trust of real sex between couples. I have no doubt that some couples sex lives are enhanced by it, God' knows it is hard to stay interetsted in the same person for decades - but it has to be a mutual thing, and often it isn't, and that destroys families.

It's quite empowering being Chris Hitcghins for a post or two!

Also, that is not to say that psychologicically healthy men don't rape - they do, they are just more often going to be..how to put this in a politically correct terms...'losers'.

Sorry about the brain, MT.
Very coherent post regardless and it answered part of my question.

SOme studies have been done, most of which have been thoroughly discredited. A particularly interesting one was that done by Zillman, which it is claimed shows that 'sexual callousness' is increased by viewing porn. Only problem is, Zillman's defiition of 'callousness' actually translates as simply not holding socially conservative values ie thinking it's OK to have sex when you are not married, that there is nothing wrong with being gay etc.

And yes, I am a member of feminists against censorship. ANd?