to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

You know I've asked the question about five times now but what does it say about men and boys, that many of them want to watch double anal, gagging porn, bukkake, bestiality (so many men have seen Animal Farm), gonzo porn, ATM etc. etc. What does it say that they want to see women brutalised in this manner? Not one person who has defended porn has answered that - all they've done is hidden behind women's so-called consent. Women aren't coming up with these ideas for porn, it's the men who make it and sell it who do that because they know that's what their male consumers want.

Xenia, have you ever actually seen any porn and if so, what kind, because the way you're talking about it, it doesn't sound like you have. People who have an objection to porn don't have issues with bodies, they have issues with the way bodies are used and exploited in porn. MonkeyTrousers is right - it's a moral argument and the porn-defenders still haven't provided anything concrete to support their side just a constant refrain that women in porn "consent". Well women "consent" to work in Nike sweatshops too but it doesn't mean that we have to support them.

Side note: LEM, feminsts (if they have any understanding of feminism at all) support women who do traditional woman's work like child-rearing. The best book I've read about the way women are devalued is "Counting for Nothing: what men value and what women are worth" by Marilyn Waring.

MT, I've really enjoyed your contributions to these threads. It's good to be part of a discussion with someone who is so well-informed.

Yes, but I tend not to view what I don't find erotic.

I have a very haunting image in my head now - Gonzo porn??? I always knew sesame street was a bit dodgy. Seriously though - what is it?

Porn is such a difficult area to decide on. TBH, i would be happy watching pretty much anything if i thought all concerned were being treated fairly. I have seen animal farm, weird, just plain weird! I really when pushed, don't know how i feel. I will admit freely that i like porn, i find it extremely arousing. I also like bondage and find light bondage in films (where it is clear that there is CONSENT) arousing. BUT it does leave a bad enough taste in my mouth (pardon the pun) for me to not buy it and to even not really want to watch the couple of videos we have, just in case.

I do think it is possible to be a liberated woman doing very nicely thankyou in the porn industry. I just think that sadly, like many industries, that it takes a strong woman to be at the top of the industry and be involved on her terms. There are definately female porn stars out there who are making alot of money. That of course doesnt detract from the many women who are being exploited by porn, it would be niave to think otherwise.

So, what to do? I dont have the answer i really really dont, its the same as prostitution, legalise? I think so, but maybe even thats not as simple as it appears.

Gonzo porn is described in many of the articles that have been linked to here - including the Max Hardcore link and the Martin Amis article. All of them contain disturbing content -

www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,458078,00.html

mwcnews.net/content/view/3286/26/

citypages.com/databank/19/893/article4117.asp

Great posts Elizabetth and Monkeytrousers.

Right, didn't think this would still be going after my weekend away but it is so I might as well carry on debating.

Firstly, please don't make assumptions Elizabetth (and I realise this is way back on the old thread...but I did read everything I'd missed while away) my dh did take it up the arse.

Zebedee...I'll have the pics if Elizabetth doesn't want them

I haven't watched Deepthroat or Animal Farm. Animal Farm wouldn't be my kind of thing, I'm not into bestiality.

I think that Xenia sums it up quite well in saying that we should be retaining rights to personal choice and freedoms. I also think that ATM, gang bang, barely legal porn is FINE as long as the people involved are legal and have given consent. I really don't see how it improves our society to control what consenting adults do sexually.

LuckySalem ? why can?t you believe this discussion is still going on? One discussion on MN doesn?t put the world to rights so the debate will always continue - and quite rightly so. I laughed out loud at your concept of ?porn police? ? don?t you realise that this is entirely impossible and therein lies the problem? Please don?t think that two consenting people having sex on film is really what is being debated here ? it isn?t.

MT ? Yup, Parris is incredibly idiotic. I may have to stop putting money into his pocket by stopping purchase of The Times.

VictorianSqualor ? again, a poster that diminishes the argument by reducing it to the relative handful of female porn stars that enjoy their job ? so what? Irrelevant.

A lot of posters have developed their argument around the issue of Elizabetth not viewing the porn cited in this thread ? a very weak defence. This undermines the crucial part of the argument against porn which is about every woman?s right to experience life without feeling undermined by her own sexuality as described by another.

?The banning thing is a red herring, a non argument, a false dichotomy - but that is a well known rhetotical trick (straw man) that people use when their argument is on shaky logical ground.?

• hear, hear, MT, well said.

Xenia: ?I would say that outweighs damage done to some women.? ? plain offensive. Very very offensive actually. It really is like talking to a child, MT.

I leave (for now) saddened that people choose to be so blinded to the world and would rather win on academic debate than have some moral backbone.

Well done E & MT for putting so much so eloquently.

Personal pleasure (and of course pornography gives a kind of reflex pleasure, that it is what it is for) can never be more important than protecting society from something harmful. Plenty of people around find beheading videos trilling and enjoyable. They would no doubt find mocked up scenarios of white people being beheaded very pleasing. The fact that some people find something sexually arousing does not mean it is good. Plenty of men find images of young girls in school uniforms very sexually exiting. Does that mean those images are 'good'? I'd say not.

That many industries (probably every single one) involve some exploitation and bad practice and abuse of workers is not in dispute. But the answer is to improve workers' rights and conditions, not to drive the industries underground (which reduces protection of workers still further and leaves room for more and worse exploitation, health risks, etc). Looking at sexually explicit material for entertainment rather than education, performing sex acts for money, specific sex acts that some individuals find unappealing or distasteful: none of these things are inherently wrong or bad.

Elizabetth: much of the extreme porn you describe is a minority preference which doesn;t sell in anything like the quantities that the standard suck&fuck, glossy or 'amateur' does. A percentage of the unappealing stuff is made by people who have actually read far too much condemnation of porn and thinkg this is what the audience like: they tend not to make much money out of it, because the majority of the audience want to see other people enjoying sex.

sorry just catching up and again dipping in and out.

sheesh. MT, walnut, Ozy all v well said.

so far no pro-porn person has actually properly engaged wiht the idea that many of us have raised -

which is ..

individuals (and their consent) are irrelevant for the broader purposes of the debate..

it's irrelevant if some of us (small-ish percentage) like pain/humiliation..

the question is, is it good for men who view porn to think that many/most of us like being humiliated?

But in reality, is it not the point of gonzo that the women don't like it?? and that they are therefore humiliated?

and that gonzo is bcming more mainstream?

this is above and beyond the arguments that have been put for vanilla/mainstream being pretty grim in an dof themselve.s

Cheers. Just one more post to Dr Northerner, who I neglected to answer way up there asking which cultures had no concept of female orgasm.

Female climax is observed to be, as far as we can tell, continent upon, individual attitudes and cultural practices (and genetic factors) such as socially conditioned expectations, their attitude toward men, marriage and their self image.

?Arapesh women?rarely experience orgasm ? no concept of a female sexual climax even exists for them ? whereas among the Mundugmor or Samoan?s the female orgasm is considered part of sex.?

From; The Woman That Never Evolved by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy. ISBN 0-674-95540-4

Wrong mademez. What Robert Jensen described in his article was a sample from mainstream pornography. Max Hardcore's videos regularly featured high in the Adult Video News Charts. BangBros the most popular paid-for site in the UK is full of woman-hatred and the ejoyment of humiliation of women. You've got porn directors saying the overt cruelty is the way the industry has gone, even Nina Hartley is concerned about it. You're just telling basic untruths now. It's such a totally BS way to conduct a discussion.

And do you know what the "sucking and fucking" as you call it is prostitution on camera. How is that defensible? Buying and selling women's bodies for men's profit (and don't pretend it isn't men that make the majority of money from porn) is called pimping. And the viewers are basically johns by proxy.

Are you a member of Feminists Against Censorship Madamez, BTW?

LEM do people really give you grief for being a SAH feminist? how v v v stewpid of them, give them a kick.

obm, good to have you back,
that is a very valid question, er, sheesh!
(what does sheesh mean?)

What we need is some way of finding out whether
consumption of such porn actually changes men's
view of women and their behaviour towards them.

It's like the debate about violent video games.

Maybe MT has some studies or books about this?

MT, there is always more to add

• why cut the debate short?

You have spent 6 years researching this field
and have a library of information about it.
When you joined the thread I was looking forward
to reams of facts, figures, studies and links from you.

So far you have not hit your stride yet.

You say that all porn is morally dubious.
I read the Martin Amis article and went looking for the
high-end gonzo porn made by Andrew Blake.

From what I can tell from the promotional material on his
website and the interview with Amis, Blake's gonzo does not
seem morally dubious.

So, is he an exception in porn industry?
Are there any exceptions?

"so far no pro-porn person has actually properly engaged wiht the idea that many of us have raised -"

i would consider myself pro-choice no pro porn.

"individuals (and their consent) are irrelevant for the broader purposes of the debate.."

wellt hat would rather depend on the debate - you cannot argue about a power relation and who has it and who hasnt without this being an integral part*

"it's irrelevant if some of us (small-ish percentage) like pain/humiliation.."

i agree - but i do not think that any one person should determine the level of any argument, to some people this question and the debate around it affects or comments on an aspect of their daily lives and that is how they will comment. and it is not you who shoudl deternine otherwise.

"the question is, is it good for men who view porn to think that many/most of us like being humiliated?"

well its not the only question - its a question of many. intentional humiliation is disgusting as per the gonzo thing you mentioned as i havent seen it but something intentionally sexually humiliating women is disgusting - rather than the humiliation being encapsulated in the genre. Some women may think the genre of porn disgusting and humiliating - but this is where we come back to the issue of individuals and their consent. if the individuals both partake ins omething which they consent to and them commit that to be watched by other people then whilst some people may find the genre humiliating, some do not. the participants may not, the consumers may not.

But in reality, is it not the point of gonzo that the women don't like it?? and that they are therefore humiliated?

taking on board your former comment about indivuduals - you shouldn't argue this point shoudl you - becuase it has no relevence

does anyone on htis thread think there are more MEN posting on ti thna it otherwise seems?

its a short way of say O pause F pause F pause S longer pause are you UTTERLY mentalist???

YES COD there are more blokes posting on here than women. No wonder it is so pro porn.

fishy, who are you accusing of being a closet man??
Sooner or later they will be found out..

"individuals (and their consent) are irrelevant for the broader purposes of the debate..

it's irrelevant if some of us (small-ish percentage) like pain/humiliation..

the question is, is it good for men who view porn to think that many/most of us like being humiliated?

But in reality, is it not the point of gonzo that the women don't like it?? and that they are therefore humiliated?"

I'd like to disagree with this and give comments on it too.

1. I don't think that individuals and consent and the fact some women like pain/humiliation is irrelevant. Mainly because so far (as far as I can see) the 'anti-porn' people have failed to acknowledge that some people choose to go into porn and enjoy making porn.

2. Imo, most men don't watch gonzo porn. Afaik most men just want to watch people fuck, it doesn't have to be gonzo for them to enjoy it. Though I stand to be corrected if someone can show me stats (and please don't tell me that bangbros is the most used paid-for site...since it appeared to me that there were 3 free sites that were popular from the list that was posted...and it also doesn't make clear from the name of the site how much gonzo people are watching from the site as opposed to 'softer' porn)

3. I also don't think men who watch porn, be it gonzo or any other type, see women as wanting to be hurt/humiliated. In fact I think that is quite insulting to men. I think most men treat women with respect and are very accepting of women's limits and preferences. I've found that men want to please their partner and that doing what turns their partner on is much more of a turn on for a man than doing what they may have seen in a porn film.

4. Men who do see women as something to hurt/humiliate may turn to porn to satisfy those feelings and I concede that those men may watch more and more extreme porn and get ideas from that. However I also believe it is not porn to blame for those men's personalities and issues. I believe it is to do with a number of factors - parents, childhood, environmental...in other words social issues that would have had that effect regardless of porn. Though I am willing to admit their behaviour possibly worsens from watching porn.

and actually daddyj feel a bit guilty at the mo bcs distracted by RL and really just dipping in.
I think you're right tho that we need tests about perception of women pre- and post- viewing mainstream and other porn, and v surprised that there appear to be none when as you? said it's been done with violent films/v games etc. (tho i think results were v much challenged..)
and of course that would never present full picture. would be as start though.