A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

[Biber]

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

@RockPainting

"Women exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is a woman and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all women are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, women have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be female, and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies."

There you go OP, I've made some changes for you.

Bravo!

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better

Don't be so bloody patronising! WE understand, we just don't agree with you. At all.

And do stop banging on about "trans people exist", as if we are unaware.

OP, I agree with you, but on Mumsnet there is no empathy for trans people, just dogma for a risk which is miniscule at best

I have no empathy for anyone who seeks to remove the safeguards of women and children. Male pattern violence does not change when a male identifies as female. The majority of sexual violence is carried out by men, both to women and other men. Pretty much half of transwomen in prison are sex offenders. Around 1 in 2 compared to 1 in 5 for the rest of the male prison population.

Just because you say something isn't a risk doesn't make it true. It does however mark you out as a person with an agenda.

Women just want to pee in peace. Women are not a prop to validate other people's identities, nor are they a shield to protect born males from other born males.

This is a problem for those born male. Not women. So stop dragging women into it and deal with it amongst yourselves.

" Life choice"
For a lot of people it is a life choice. If we had stuck with the "old-fashioned" idea of gender transition being for those with dysphoria, we wouldn't actually be in this mess. As it is, if anyone can say they are a woman (and can even do it on alternate days if they wish) we need to defend single-sex spaces - spaces which we shared more-or-less happily with transexuals not so long ago.

Trans people are mentally disabled!!! Are you for real?
Don't do that

Why does this always focus on transwomen? Transmen seem to just get on with things

Probably because they were raised as girls.

I thought every day was like this presently. Women are not angry about genuine trans women as such in their spaces, but the fact that it gives carte blanche to any old pervert to access what were previously safe spaces for women and girls. And they do. What we are also angry about is the fact that often it is women's toilets/changing rooms etc which are relabelled 'unisex /gender neutral' etc, while mens facilities remain just for men. Yes, women should be able to march in there and use the men's facilities, but who wants to? So the erosion of rights, the fact that women and girls now have even fewer private and safe spaces, the possibility of attack from pervy men who KNOW they will or can not be questioned .... yes those are things to be angry about.

I don't really care about toilets and individual changing rooms. But I care a lot about women's sport not being available to natally male people with unfair biological advantage.

And I do not accept that women have penises or men menstruate.

Sex is a legally protected characteristic under the Equalities Act, for good reason and after long campaigning.

Gender is not. Because gender is not a real thing, unlike sex.

If men want to claim the hard-won rights of women for themselves, let's be clear that what they are doing is (a) illegal, and (b) misogynistic.

I don't think the OP wrote the post - she says 'message from a friend'.

I couldn't give a fuck what toilet you use. Just like I'll use the men's if there's a queue for the women's.

As it is, if anyone can say they are a woman (and can even do it on alternate days if they wish)
^^. There's the "life choice", right there. How can anyone argue against it being a choice when we have this Arthur on Mondays and Martha on Tuesdays lark?

Havent rtft
A thought has occured to me, that hadnt occured before you wrote the op.
If I was trans, if I didnt have any agenda, was a totally reasonable person, out of respect for all women, and young girls, I would not go into womens' public toilets. End of.

God, I wish voting was enabled.

The OP knows the majority opinion on this issue well enough not to do that.

Yawn. No biological men shouldn’t be in toilets with women. No people with a penis shouldn’t be in a women’s prison. And no a massive great bloke shouldn’t be able to compete in women’s weight lifting and steal the Olympic gold from an actual woman.

Women are people too. And I’m sick to death of us having our right constantly trampled on to pander to transsexuals.

@SmallPrawnEnergy

I complexly agree with you *@financialrecovery* but this is MN, notorious for being anti trans. Case in point...

The issue isn't that people don't want trans people in sex segregated spaces.
It's that there are people pretending to be trans who have a different agenda
MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people. All trans people are evil, but if a f2m transgender person walked into a women’s toilet with a beard and looking like a traditional masculine man, you bet they wouldn’t be inclusive because of their genitalia (which seems to be the main issue).

Do not cherry pick my posts and twist my words. I very specifically said that transpeople need to be protected. There are sadly cases of men pretending to be trans in order to access women's spaces. This does not mean all transmen fall into this category.

Just because you say something isn't a risk doesn't make it true. It does however mark you out as a person with an agenda.

Yes, and I think some of us are still waiting for those statistics to come through to reassure us that males who transition have their propensity to commit the type of crimes that are most common amongst males reduced or completely diminished to female level and, most importantly, the RATE at which they commit those crimes to be diminished at female rates.

Without that, the same argument for safeguarding exists. Not all males commit those crimes, but that doesn't mean that any males should be access female single sex spaces.

I will continue waiting though.

Well the toilet thing is all moot now.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9584757/Gents-ladies-toilets-compulsory-public-buildings-new-planning-laws.html

If I was trans, if I didnt have any agenda, was a totally reasonable person, out of respect for all women, and young girls, I would not go into womens' public toilets. End of.

Yes, that really is the key. Male people in a female space against women's consent is a problem in and of itself. It shows they have no respect for women's feelings and boundaries.

[quote justasking111]Well the toilet thing is all moot now.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9584757/Gents-ladies-toilets-compulsory-public-buildings-new-planning-laws.html[/quote]
Yet schools are continuing to install mixed toilets. There's still a way to go.

To be honest toilets are not the hill for women to die on. The hills we need to defend are those of justice, safety, and fairness.

So the justice system needs our protection because firstly, crimes not committed by women are being ascribed to us, meaning that statistics are being skewed, court reports are written as lies, and women are being labelled as as prone to violence as men are. It means that vulnerable women are in danger as violent male perpetrators of violent crimes against women -including rape - are being incarcerated in women’s prisons because they claim the right to do so. It means women are admonished by judges in court not to misgender their abusers and rapists, so they find themselves having to relate the events of their abuse in terms like “ she told me she would kill me then she forced her penis into my vagina then finally ejaculated her cum on my face” .

Safety is another issue, women need to feel safe in situations and environments where they are particularly vulnerable, prisons as already mentioned, but also hospitals, refuges, hostels, changing rooms in sports facilities and shops. Young women need to feel safe in their own skins, not to feel that the only way to escape male violence and abuse is to declare themselves male.

Fairness, we all know how the world of work for example is biased towards men, we know about higher salaries, improved prospects for promotion, bias against women of child rearing age in the workplace, expectations about childcare obligations, leading to all of the above and reduced pensions too. But there are other ways that women are now being treated unfairly. We are missing out on our rightful representation because attempts to even up female representation is being scuppered by the inclusion of trans women on women only shortlists, or in women’s officer roles in Unions and universities, even as the head of Rape crisis centres. I am not saying that trans people do not deserve representation in these institutions, they do, but the experiences and issues facing transwomen are not the same as those for natal women. Even the language used to describe us is being eroded, meaning that the words we have used to describe ourselves as women and which we all understand are no longer deemed appropriate , and why is this unfair? Because the words men use to describe themselves are not affects. More unfairness appears in the world of sport, as at all levels of sport women’s rights to compete against other women, to win awards, to win sponsorship, to represent their country and be acknowledged as elite are being subsumed by the needs of mediocre male athletes to have their ego stroked.

So, toilets? If middle aged men who like wearing women’s underwear and dressing like 1950 housewives in bad wigs and dated makeup need to pee then fine , let them. If trans men can’t summon up the courage to use men’s toilets then fine. If transwomen can’t face the stench of men’s toilets who can blame them. But I think the real and unasked question about who uses women’s toilets is where is the agitation and pressure for a kinder attitude to trans people using men’s toilets, why has the burden of kindness and space sharing fallen on women? Where are the trans people demanding that men show tolerance and acceptance.

Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander are two Transwomen who started a petition for 3rd spaces.

mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

@Tibtom

Imasoulman nowhere in the post by Hallyup6 do they say mentally disabled.

" it could be argued that Trans people have mental health issues and are therefore disabled "

I didn't read your whole post because I don't need someone preaching to me about how they want rights when ours are being stripped away by the day.

@GreyhoundG1rl

As it is, if anyone can say they are a woman (and can even do it on alternate days if they wish) ^^. There's the "life choice", right there. How can anyone argue against it being a choice when we have this Arthur on Mondays and Martha on Tuesdays lark?

I'm sure someone will be highlighting this one on Non-Binary and Drag Queen Phobia Awareness Day. Held every Friday alternatively from now on, pronoun badges available at the door.

Are you popping onto all the predominately male chat forums today with similar messages??

I'm gonna guess it's a big ol' no.