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A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
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Whythesadface · 18/05/2021 12:32

The Olympics will change their stance.
Because of this.
Remember the ringers team in the disabilties games. Turned out only 1 or 2 people in the team of the gold medals were disabled.
So which county is going to Win all 3 Gold medals with a Trans woman team...

ThewaterlilliesofGiverny · 18/05/2021 12:33

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans.

Seems reasonable to me.

Imasoulman · 18/05/2021 12:33

@GreyhoundG1rl

As it is, if anyone can say they are a woman (and can even do it on alternate days if they wish) ^^. There's the "life choice", right there. How can anyone argue against it being a choice when we have this Arthur on Mondays and Martha on Tuesdays lark?
But they are not Trans, transgender people don't flip back and forth.
VanGoghsDog · 18/05/2021 12:34

If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves)

And if the way they present themselves does make someone uncomfortable, what then?

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 12:34

[quote DialSquare]Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander are two Transwomen who started a petition for 3rd spaces.

mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/[/quote]
And maybe the posters here who have taken women to task for discussing their boundaries, might sign this and actually help with a solution that takes into account the needs of each group. And it is being done by two transwomen which also proves that there is a group of transwomen who don't agree with the OP.

Erikrie · 18/05/2021 12:34

I can't imagine insisting constantly that I should have access to a space where, by doing so, I make people feel afraid and uncomfortable. And they are aware because they've been told time and time again. Yet some persist, right in the face of that. It's almost as though they don't identify with or care about women at all really isn't it.

I wonder why that is...

midgedude · 18/05/2021 12:35

I have a friend called Kevin
He isn't trans
He told me he would feel safer in the ladies as he would be less at risk of being attacked for being called Kevin

Is that reasonable ?

After all men are at significant risk of harm from other men

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 18/05/2021 12:35

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans.

That's nice. But women had to fight to get these toilets for ourselves. Many women feel unsafe having any male in the toilets, no matter how they identify. What about women's feelings?

Many men are vulnerable from other men. That doesn't mean that they should be using the ladies' toilets or other facilities. The facilities are for women, not for men who are worried about what other men will do to them.

Either use the men's or campaign for a third space.

GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 12:35

@ThewaterlilliesofGiverny

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans.

Seems reasonable to me.

But this opens the floodgates for women to be attacked by people with male genitalia in the women's toilets, if anybody can gain entry by simply declaring themselves a woman. Seems absolutely unreasonable to me.
SirVixofVixHall · 18/05/2021 12:36

@Erikrie

OP, I agree with you, but on Mumsnet there is no empathy for trans people, just dogma for a risk which is miniscule at best

I have no empathy for anyone who seeks to remove the safeguards of women and children. Male pattern violence does not change when a male identifies as female. The majority of sexual violence is carried out by men, both to women and other men. Pretty much half of transwomen in prison are sex offenders. Around 1 in 2 compared to 1 in 5 for the rest of the male prison population.

Just because you say something isn't a risk doesn't make it true. It does however mark you out as a person with an agenda.

Women just want to pee in peace. Women are not a prop to validate other people's identities, nor are they a shield to protect born males from other born males.

This is a problem for those born male. Not women. So stop dragging women into it and deal with it amongst yourselves.

I could not agree with this more. Think I need it on a T shirt.
midgedude · 18/05/2021 12:36

Are we expected to wait until someone has actually performed a bad action before we are allowed to feel uncomfortable?

It used to be that make in female Loo==bad action

VanGoghsDog · 18/05/2021 12:37

@ThewaterlilliesofGiverny

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans.

Seems reasonable to me.

But why doesn't anyone address the fact that anyone feels unsafe and at risk of attack in the men's loos?

That's the issue.

Why then impose men into women's spaces because they are scared of other men? The women in the women's place are worried about men too. That's why we have women's spaces.

Do something about men being aggressors rather than dump the problem on women.

Melitza · 18/05/2021 12:37

@FFSFFSFFS

Are you popping onto all the predominately male chat forums today with similar messages??

I'm gonna guess it's a big ol' no.

More likely popping onto Twitter to highlight MN responses.
HellonHeels · 18/05/2021 12:38

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

This!
BrumBoo · 18/05/2021 12:39

But they are not Trans, transgender people don't flip back and forth.

@imasoulman yes they do. Plenty of gender non-binary, nonconformist and drags do exactly this. They are all part of the trans umbrella.

lifeturnsonadime · 18/05/2021 12:39

But they are not Trans, transgender people don't flip back and forth.

I raise you Philip/ Pip Bunce, man half the week, woman half the week and winner of Business Woman of the Year award.

Are you saying they are not trans, how very erm transphobic of you!

Hopeisnotastrategy · 18/05/2021 12:40

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

Alleluia!
Erikrie · 18/05/2021 12:41

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans

That's nice. And when born males (however they identify) use those spaces, they make women feel less safe. In case they get attacked for being female.
Why is it ok that born males think they should use women's toilets to protect themselves from other males, thus making women less safe. Women are not a shield. I'm absolutely sick of this. And any sympathy I may have had is completely gone.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/05/2021 12:41

It massively sucks for trans women - I think a third space is probably the best and fairest solution, and I will campaign by your side for such spaces to exist.

I commend your view. It's one I would have shared once upon a time; I'd even have joined you in actively campaigning for it. No more.

As one of the rape victims/stalking victims/assault victims have been put in the position of talking about those experiences as justification for our legally conferred, sex based rights - as so many have and been shot down in flames as 'weaponising your trauma', I'm now disinclined. Women still have many serious battles of our own to fight. The trans one is a separate issue and it's not my responsibility. It's their activists who have attempted to ride roughshod over my right to self-definition, protected spaces, even to the name Woman, using my body, definition and past trauma to validate their own precarious sense of self. And how could it ever be other than precarious? 'Gender' is nebulous, shifting like the sand from generation to generation and day to day. It's hardly a solid basis around which to build an identity.

Not my problem. I'm no longer prepared to have it made my problem. I find the words 'weaponising your trauma' amongst the most offensive I've ever heard uttered, and that's saying much.

TRAs can fight their own battles, as I've had to fight mine, and women have had to fight ours. They can scream 'transphobe' and 'bigot' all they like. It's lost its impetus, and I no longer care.

Tibtom · 18/05/2021 12:41

it could be argued that Trans people have mental health issues and are therefore disabled

People are disabled by mental health issues, including transgender peoplwe. We know that transitioning increases risk of suicide nine-fold compared (as opposed to children who identify as trans who are at no more risk of suicide than others referred to camhs) which would suggest mental health is an issue. But 'mental disability' has a completely different meaning - it refers to IQ not mental health (generally referred to as learning disability). Though your disgust at this term doesn't reckect well on your attitude to either mental health or learning disability.

Terrysmyorange · 18/05/2021 12:42

Well, that was condescending.

Naunet · 18/05/2021 12:42

I hope one day the majority of people on Mumsnet will understand what you're talking about and show more compassion. The discrimination against trans people in 2021 is a disgrace

What discrimination? Can you be specific?

Regarding the toilets in my opinion they should all be private and gender neutral, this way there's no exclusion and it's nicer for everyone

Nicer for everyone, despite the increased risk of assault for women and children? Can you explain that?

timeisnotaline · 18/05/2021 12:44

@financialrecovery

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

This is like if there were a disease that affects all transpeople, and a large percentage of white people. And financialecovery travelled to the international conference for people with this disease and told them all they don’t understand what having this disease is like because even though everyone in the room has it and represents people who have it, apparently only trans people with the disease understand what it’s like to have this disease.
KarmaKarmaKarmaChameleon · 18/05/2021 12:45

Is your friend transgender or transsexual? I’m not a fan of the term ‘trans’, it erases the difference between the two and there’s a big difference.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 12:46

They have been through enough

Like female victims of male violence have? I believe forcing them to have males in spaces where they feel vulnerable is wrong, so there we go.

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