A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

[Biber]

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

Imasoulman

I am sure that you are angry that the trans umbrella is so wide. There is not only the group that specifically targets female facilities of course. There are also the transmaxxing groups like on reddit.

Unfortunately, the only people who can get word out that this is unacceptable is you and other trans people. Sadly, I think it will be a very hard road to change this back.

FWIW, I, and many others, realise that this group is not necessarily representative of the whole.

As a transwoman (non transitioned)I am horrified to have been lumped in with men who dress and masterbate in female toilets.

You haven't, we may not be able to relate to your experience of gender dysphoria but we do understand there is a difference between people with gender dysphoria and men who dress up and masturbate in women's toilets. In my experience males with gender dysphoria do not proudly display their genitals anywhere, never mind publishing masturbation footage on porn sites. The problem lies in there being no reliable way to visually tell the difference.

Unfortunately when Stonewall decided to champion trans rights they realised the number of people with gender dysphoria was far too small to be profitable so they opened an umbrella and corralled any man who'd ever worn a pink shirt and every woman who'd ever wielded a power tool under it, the predators and perverts saw an opportunity and sought shelter. The net result is that women's rights, lesbians, gay and bisexual rights and safeguarding are being eroded, and you have become marginalised in your own community.

We didn't do this. Many of us, me included, didn't bat an eyelid when the original GRA was passed, now I understand it was a mistake. A legal fiction arising from kindness and sensitivity has resulted in women fighting to retain hard won rights, their boundaries are branded as bigotry and the many people who should be able to stand up for us by enforcing existing legislation are bullied into silence.

@Furries isn't that the issue though? Women are constantly being accused of not being inclusive, but actually, we always have been. That's what causes this mess, being tolerant of things which shouldn't be tolerated. At the same time, we are pregnant people, vagina havers, chest feeders. So who is being inclusive of women? When infant death charities call bereaved mothers birthing people, mothers who deserve, have earned and who desperately need the word mother, like Sands did a few months ago, who gets excluded? This ideology is the opposite of inclusive. It isn't kind, it's vicious, hurtful and cruel. To women. And it bleats on about inclusivity to appeal to our maternal instincts, beating us with the same stick twice.

I am sure that you are angry that the trans umbrella is so wide. There is not only the group that specifically targets female facilities of course.

Just to clarify though. I am not implying at all that those who are uploading videos of them masturbating in toilets don't also suffer from gender dysphoria. I am not implying that they are any more or any less fitting the description of transgender as any other person who has transitioned.

@Carouselfish
saying you 'feel like' a woman, should only be met with the response Which one?

I like this, please may I use it?

Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts.

Correct.

But this is about sex segregated spaces.

Nowt t do with gender.

As both feminists, and transactivists agree that sex and gender are different things, its kind of baffling how sme still try and conflate them all the time. Acknowledge they are VERY different, and not connected either, but then go onto say gender where you mean sex, in order to say sex segregation is transphobic because gender

Its weirder to read together. I have seen someone say in the same post that sex and gender are nothing to do with each other, gender is internal and is who you are (slightly concerning for me, as if this is the case I am an empty shell, as I haveno internal gender identity it seems, despite sarching for one), sex is what you are...etc. Then launch right into 'single sex areas for women should obviosly include TW because they are of a womanly gender'. Just..weird.

Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts

How is my brain female? I have no idea.

Weird how many of these middle aged trans women like makeup, high heels and trying on bras in female changing rooms. Am I missing that bit of female brain??

If anyone is going to attack anyone a door with women only or men only on it wont stop them

Thats also an interesting argument that is seen often. Men will attack you anyway, a door makes no difference. So, if a door makes no difference, why the need to be in the womens in the first place, surely the men you are avoiding can still attack you, because only a door?

Same as 'its only someone peeing, why be worried'. I raise you, why are some males scared to use the mens, given men only pee too. Why the need for the womens? Men also just pee and get out. If not (moving onto point 3..)

'You can report it if you are attacked'. Not said here but usually at some stage. Why is this only a solution for women, and not for males?!

I guess if I was noticed I was very kindly tolerated as a genuine transwoman, I don't think an ulterior motive was really considered back then ?

Yes, there was a bit of godwill agreement going on then I guess.

Mind, I have came to realise that some women DID care even then and yes, when it was just about transsexual people. But it was nowhere near what it is now. I genuinely feel awful for transsexual people in all this, as they are getting a shitty end of the stick same as women, and gay people are really. Yet, these activists claim to be fighting FOR transsexual people, whilst actively trying to shut them up and calling them names such as 'truscum'. Its vile.

I do feel like 'acceptance' was on the up. Until Stonewall waded in and widened the umbrella to include all men. Now, I do actually see a bit of transphobia every now and again, though still largely from men. I have a family member who is transsexual, and she is so mad by all of this, says shes sick of being lumped in with MRAs, incels, and so on, but she has tried speaking up when the activists start and gets jumped on by 'trans allies'. I can imagine thats tough to deal with. She says the logical solution is an additional mixed sex space where possible. Which..seems to make a hell of a lot of sense, and it should give people pause..when they think about why transactivists would not be happy with that solution, why it seems imperitive to ride roughshod over all womens rights. Why someone suggesting campaigning for a third space, recieves such anger and bile in response.

@SpindleWhorl

I know I won't get an answer but it is very telling which cohort are the most esteemed and important and must be centre of all the attention all of the time.

A poster said on another thread, that we're supposed to worship the ground they walk on.

I think that's it. They're gods. Women are mere mortals, set far below. Allies and men are priests or something like that, organising the bringing in of 'tribute' from the mortal women to the gods.

This reminded me of the men leading religious cults who wanted the women in the cults to sleep with them whether or not they wanted to or if they already had partners.

Defending women's sex based rights is not transphobia.
But thanks for the lecture anyway.

As a transwoman (non transitioned)I am horrified to have been lumped in with men who dress and masterbate in female toilets.

Yes I appreciate women aren't the only victims of this ideology.

I am really upset and find it hard to believe that it has come this.

Yes.

The size of the Trans " umbrella " is ridiculous.
These men are sexual perverts not transwomen.

Well to be fair, they could be both. Not that I'm saying all transwomen are perverts and not all perverts are transwomen. But around 1 in 2 transwomen are in prison for sexual offences compared to around 1 in 5 of the rest of the male prison population.

When I was a teen, decades ago now I started to present as female, rightly or wrongly on occasions I did use female toilets.

Not ideal. But you obviously got away with it.

A different time and different attitudes of course. At the time I believe I "passed " very easily I generally had my sister with me so maybe that helped in some way.

It was a different time. And there were far fewer transwomen using those spaces. It was easier to let it go.

I guess if I was noticed I was very kindly tolerated as a genuine transwoman, I don't think an ulterior motive was really considered back then?

Probably not so much. Women were more prepared to be kind, as there were very few at the time.

Now however decades later attitudes are rightly different because of this stupid idea that someone just has to say they id as female even though they continue to dress, act and present fully as men !!

Yep. It's fucked it up for everyone.

I would never dream of using the ladies now, I recognise the fear that could cause, how uncomfortable the other users would feel.

Thank you.

Mother nature has not been kind to me, despite my best efforts I look like a man in a dress, and so I generally hide away these days.

Just be yourself. It doesn't really matter.

I am not a pervert

No I don't think you are.

[quote Furries]**@Helleofabore* @stonecat* - thanks both, I will settle down for a read of those.

This thread has shown me how naive I’ve been on this matter - as in it hasn’t really registered with me. I haven’t worked for a few years for long-term health reasons, so there have been no workplace inclusivity missives to be involved with. My social circle is very small as I’m mainly at home.

I don’t know any trans people. I think in my head I’d just squared it off as thinking good on them, it must be really hard to feel that you have been born in the wrong body and that it takes a huge amount of courage to go through the process of transitioning. My only experience of “knowing” someone was at college in the 80’s where a lecturer started MtF transitioning one term. I’d imagine an environment with college-aged kids was not an easy place to do that, but it was pre-Internet etc and, actually, it appeared that the vast majority of people thought it was brave (very unusual, definitely a talking point, but brave).

I had no idea how far the umbrella had widened today. I had no idea that there is no requirement to even dress as a woman, start hormone therapy etc - that the simple assertion of identifying as a female was enough. I also wasn’t aware of anything around being non-binary etc.

It’s really opened my eyes, and I’ve obviously got a lot more to read to understand things properly. With the very little I’ve gleaned via this thread, it’s left me feeling that none of this is helpful for those who are fully transitioning - it’s turning things into a complete minefield for them. And as to what I’ve read regarding the situation regarding lesbians, I’ve read that with absolute bloody horror.

I find the thought of not being an inclusive and tolerant person difficult, it goes against my natural instincts. But from what I’ve read so far, I’m not feeling very inclusive at all - which is a very strange feeling. And what a minefield for kids growing up today.

Off to read those threads now - thanks again.[/quote]
Yes, its a very very odd feeling, once you 'see it'. It took me over a year to get used to being called bigoted for noticing these things and fighting against them as I need to protect womens rights. Many people think you are talking total nonsense, if you bring much of it up, as it sounds so bloody ridiculous and its one of those things where the usual thought would be 'no, that wont ever happen, its too nosensical'. The state of things today is just insane. And yes, it does make things harder for 'genuine' transpeople to, of course it does. Those claiming to fight for them, actually fight against them, and a large portion of the public do not know this as its largely been stealth until recetly..though as I understand it, lesbians have been targetted for literally years and years now. It was the 'cotton ceiling' that made me wake up on it, and once that cliced, the rest fell on its own, to the stage where I still am so confused about how I didnt see the problems instantly

I do think most would see the prblem if they let themselves think just a little bit about it. But its a kneejerk reaction really when you think its all abut transsexual people..to 'protect them'. Or it was for me anyway. Also, once seen it cannot be unseen. I have often wondered if I would prefer NOT knowing still, still being of the 'its only a few, and they have dysphoria and their lives must be hard, they need support', and in some ways it would be better, certainly less stressful. But then I think, its probably better to..know whats happening, as much as it upsets me from a multitude of angles.

The entire ideolgy is anti-women, anti-transsexual, and anti-gay. But is framed in such a way that its really not those things and if anyone notices those things they are actually just massive bigots who are making up scenarios to be transphobic. After my eyes were 'opened', thats something else that felt a bit weird, as I had also written off those opposed as bigots..but thinking logically, why on earth would a bunch of people, primarily feminists, suddenly become bigoted over night. How on earth did I think that happened, and why the fuck did I never stop to think 'hold on here, maybe they have a point as it makes no sense for people who have spent their lives fighting for various causes to suddenly 'go bad''

@Helleofabore

Imasoulman

I am sure that you are angry that the trans umbrella is so wide. There is not only the group that specifically targets female facilities of course. There are also the transmaxxing groups like on reddit.

Unfortunately, the only people who can get word out that this is unacceptable is you and other trans people. Sadly, I think it will be a very hard road to change this back.

FWIW, I, and many others, realise that this group is not necessarily representative of the whole.

I had never heard of transmaxxing..googled, and wish I hadn't. Not surprising mind, but how ridiculous..

I swear everytime I google something these days I regret it. I need to learn, really

[quote stonecat]**@Imasoulman

Please fight with us. Fight for transwomen's rights and women's rights.

We are with you. Just not to the detriment of our own privacy, dignity and safety.

The more transwomen like yourself stand up and fight with us, the better it is for women, transwomen and everyone.

Women need:

Female toilets
Female changing rooms
Female prisons
Female rape crisis centres and charities
Female domestic abuse shelters [/quote]
Can I just second this, and add that women also want to be free from being coerced into sexual relationships or risk being ostracised/bullied/worse unless they comply.

Also to have the choice as to the sex of the HCP carrying out intimate procedures.

@Imasoulman this rhetoric hurts us all.

Transmaxxing.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

@TheVampiresWife

Transmaxxing.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

What in the name of all that is holy....

Do women still get cheaper car insurance?

@TheVampiresWife

Transmaxxing.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

Being able to attract high quality males for sex...

@GreyhoundG1rl and extract their resources

Do women still get cheaper car insurance

I don't think so. They made it equal by raising the costs of women's premiums.

It's just a fantasy isn't it. Like when I was a child and wanted to be Princess Diana so I could wear lovely dresses and big jewels and ride ponies and eat Nutella sandwiches for every meal and live in a castle. I'm fairly sure Di didn't eat Nutella sandwiches but I'm also 100% certain that being female doesn't mean you shag quality men and fancy yourself. It's just fantasyland based on your own perception.

[quote TheVampiresWife]@GreyhoundG1rl and extract their resources [/quote]
Jesus, yes
😂😂

@TheVampiresWife

Transmaxxing.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

I'm laughing so hard at that.

But only because the alternative is to cry. What the fuck did I just read?

More and more proof that they really have no idea what being a women is.