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A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 20:29

@OldCrone

So all women here would be comfortable with trans men (biological women) who look like men, have beards etc. being in women's bathrooms?

Where do the transmen want to go? Do men object to transmen in men's toilets? If they look like men would the men even notice?

If they look sufficiently like men to cause consternation in the women’s, they should be perfectly safe in the men’s. No man will perceive them as a threat.
Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 20:30

And sunflowers wouldn't it be a great solution that females could feel very secure in the knowledge that males, ALL males, respected the boundaries of single sex spaces so that transmen wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if they did enter a female single sex space. Because other females would be assured that they were females too.

However, we have the situation where some (not all, of course) males have repeatedly told us, often jeeringly, that they have used female single sex spaces and feel absolutely entitled to it and will not stop.

Posters who have declared they are 'trans allies' have talked about empathy. Yet, where is the empathy being shown by those who tell us that our needs, for whatever reason, is meaningless in the face of theirs.

BrumBoo · 18/05/2021 20:30

@Blue4YOU

I’m at a loss as to how toilets ever became such a battle ground.
Well it tends to happen when people insist on throwing out all safeguarding in the name of 'be kind'.
Blue4YOU · 18/05/2021 20:30

And I say that thinking CAN WOMEN BE LEFT ALONE to FUCK WHO THEY WANT please.. I’m shouting into the wind.
How dare any group tell someone who they should be willing to fuck, let alone share a toilet with

Blue4YOU · 18/05/2021 20:31

@BrumBoo
That’s what I mean

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 20:32

@Blue4YOU

I’m at a loss as to how toilets ever became such a battle ground.
From what I have read, some well meaning doctors decades ago (usually males) told others that transitioning means that female toilets were for them. And it has stuck.
Inertia · 18/05/2021 20:32

I wonder whether the OP’s friend might feel less marginalised if he/she/they/etc listened to and engaged with people about finding solutions which engaged with everybody’s rights, rather than operating on broadcast mode only?

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 20:41

Blue4YOU
I’m at a loss as to how toilets ever became such a battle ground.

I would imagine it's because toilets are the most easily accessible, common places for validation.

Boredoutmymind · 18/05/2021 20:48

@titchy

I'm confused OP - you seem to be labouring under the delusion that women want to deny transwomen access to the loo. If that's what you've been told I'm afraid you are very very wrong. No one wants that. Just use the loo designed for your biological sex that's all!

HTH.

So transmens in womens toilets and transwomen in mens toilets. Is that what you are saying?

Transmen look like bio men so how you gonna distinguish between transmen and cis men?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/05/2021 20:49

And that if she rejected a transwoman she would cause that person hurt and to do so would be cruel.

What the ever-loving fuck? Thought Aldous Huxley was being satirical when he wrote his hideous Brave New World in which 'everyone belongs to everyone else' and at all times are obliged to put out when another person feels like having sex with them. When I read that book as an undergrad 20 years ago I had no idea it was so prescient. Talk about a backward slide.

There is something so entitled and rapey about this ideology it makes my hackles rise. I've been stalked for months by a man who wouldn't hear 'no'. No, a woman doesn't want to sleep with someone, is saying 'no', and is lectured that it's some form of moral fucking obligation? It's repugnant.

Waitwhat23 · 18/05/2021 20:50

What I find bizarre is that there seem to be an expectation that people (lesbians it seems in particular) have to justify who they want to sleep with. Putting aside the absurdity of demanding that people who are same sex attracted include people of the opposite sex as potential partners, no-one should have to justify their choices as to whom they want to have sex with. You may not want to sleep with someone else for a multitude of reasons, lots of which are indefinable. No-one owes anyone else sex!

Teddypicker · 18/05/2021 20:57

@lifeturnsonadime

What I don't understand is why it wouldn't be a massive step forward for trans rights to encourage people to be more inclusive of their own sex class however they identify.

If a transwoman feels that uncomfortable in the men's (sexed) loos then why is it appropriate for her to make women uncomfortable in female sex loos? Given that the Stonewall definition of trans requires no change in outward appearance, the detriment to women is that they can't challenge any man who enters female facilities. This has a disproportionate impact on women. Particularly vulnerable ones and more importantly than loos the impact on sport, refuges and prisons.

Surely the more inclusive answer is for males to accept all males however they identify?

Otherwise it's validation at the expense of women who have no choice.

And it's not possible to pretend that trans rights don't impact women unless you come from a huge point of privilege.

@lifeturnsonadime. This sums up the situation perfectly. All my erratic thoughts summed up perfectly and succinctly in one post. Well done and thank you Star
Boredoutmymind · 18/05/2021 20:57

@midgedude

Most people , especially women , can accurately sex others ( when physically in same location) so transmen should not be a problem for most women
LMAO. Women would not be abled to identify transmen who look exactly like CIS males. Some women think teenage bio females with short hair are males. Even worse butch lesbians have been harassed for using women's toilets
RedDogsBeg · 18/05/2021 20:58

Women just want the use the toilet facilities provided for them on the basis of their sex in safety, comfort, dignity and privacy confident that the only people they are sharing these facilities with are female.

It is notable that the usual hyperbole is trotted out. When women state they don't want males in their spaces due to trauma, fear, religion the reaction of the TRA's is:

Get over yourselves, Stop weaponising your trauma, Stay at home, If someone wanted to rape or assault you they would, just call the Police

When a TW says they feel threatened and too frightened to use the male toilets the reaction is:

Oh poor you, how terrible, there, there, of course you shouldn't have to be frightened

From me to TRA's: take the advice you dish out to women. You call the police if you are assaulted in the toilets that are provided for your sex, you get over it, you stop weaponising your trauma.

Female single sex toilets are not for males however they present.

CorvusPurpureus · 18/05/2021 20:59

So transmens in womens toilets and transwomen in mens toilets. Is that what you are saying?

Transmen look like bio men so how you gonna distinguish between transmen and cis men?

If there are people for whom the single sex spaces appropriate for their sex are not the spaces they want to use, then it would be great if there was more unisex provision for them. It's not a novel suggestion.

Transmen are perfectly entitled to use female single sex loos if they want to. If they want to use the Gents, that's between them & the, well, gents, to sort out.

They won't present much risk to males, to be fair, although men are totally within their rights to object on privacy & dignity grounds as far as I'm concerned - but male spaces aren't mine to worry about, & I'm happy to let the chaps thrash that one out.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/05/2021 21:01

TM are shorter with wider hips & smaller hands & feet. An image on line is very different to seeing someone walk and talk in real life

A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....
A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....
CorvusPurpureus · 18/05/2021 21:03

LMAO. Women would not be abled to identify transmen who look exactly like CIS males. Some women think teenage bio females with short hair are males. Even worse butch lesbians have been harassed for using women's toilets

I'm tall & quite masculine looking, & occasionally other women double take in the women's loos (used to mostly happen if I was wearing bike leathers).

No problem - I'm happy to clarify that I am indeed female, although I don't think another woman has ever mis-sexed me for more than a second.

midgedude · 18/05/2021 21:03

If you go out of your way to fool people about your sex, you need to accept the consequences

Artichokeleaves · 18/05/2021 21:05

No, a woman doesn't want to sleep with someone, is saying 'no', and is lectured that it's some form of moral fucking obligation? It's repugnant.

The well known TW Rachel McKinnon explained on radio 4 during interview that lesbian women can learn to cope with sex with people with penises (if they try.) And well known TW youtuber Riley Dennis explains in detail the need to overcome your genital preferences as just learned behaviours you should develop beyond and learn to be inclusive. Dennis adds that if you have been traumatised you may have a short period to recover from this, but need to work on it ASAP.

The implication that sex is not something for women to enjoy but to provide is very strong. There is no reciprocation towards the selflessness required of females in this, or mention of interest in their feelings and needs as a sexual partner.

Now consider the current pressure on govt to ban conversion therapy, led by the same ideology that feels that female people working to overcome a same sex preference is a social duty, and those who insist on identifying sexual partners by sex rather than identity should not be included in Pride, or treated like the pp's daughter.

RedDogsBeg · 18/05/2021 21:07

I wonder why the OP of this thread chose to ONLY focus on Trans on this special day, what's the justification? I know I won't get an answer but it is very telling which cohort are the most esteemed and important and must be centre of all the attention all of the time.

GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 21:09

Riley Dennis explains in detail the need to overcome your genital preferences as just learned behaviours you should develop beyond and learn to be inclusive. Dennis adds that if you have been traumatised you may have a short period to recover from this, but need to work on it ASAP
The neck of the ridiculous little scut! Who gives these halfwits a platform?

PronounssheRa · 18/05/2021 21:11

The neck of the ridiculous little scut! Who gives these halfwits a platform?

Stonewall

DrSbaitso · 18/05/2021 21:13

@Artichokeleaves

No, a woman doesn't want to sleep with someone, is saying 'no', and is lectured that it's some form of moral fucking obligation? It's repugnant.

The well known TW Rachel McKinnon explained on radio 4 during interview that lesbian women can learn to cope with sex with people with penises (if they try.) And well known TW youtuber Riley Dennis explains in detail the need to overcome your genital preferences as just learned behaviours you should develop beyond and learn to be inclusive. Dennis adds that if you have been traumatised you may have a short period to recover from this, but need to work on it ASAP.

The implication that sex is not something for women to enjoy but to provide is very strong. There is no reciprocation towards the selflessness required of females in this, or mention of interest in their feelings and needs as a sexual partner.

Now consider the current pressure on govt to ban conversion therapy, led by the same ideology that feels that female people working to overcome a same sex preference is a social duty, and those who insist on identifying sexual partners by sex rather than identity should not be included in Pride, or treated like the pp's daughter.

What do they think of trans people who are attracted to only one sex or gender? Are they under the same obligation?
youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/05/2021 21:17

What do they think of trans people who are attracted to only one sex or gender? Are they under the same obligation?

Of course not, how very dare you try to tell trans people who they should and shouldn't want to shag.

It's ok to tell women who they should and shouldn't shag though, because women should always be kind.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 21:20

So transmens in womens toilets and transwomen in mens toilets. Is that what you are saying?

Transmen look like bio men so how you gonna distinguish between transmen and cis men?

And if you listen to some transmen, they are fully aware of this if they have taken testosterone. Some of them understand that traumatised females have needs for single sex spaces and often choose not to use the female toilets. Just like some transitioned males understand this.