Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Artichokeleaves · 18/05/2021 18:22

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

Well I believe the MP Layla Moran shared in the House of Commons that she personally has no trouble because she can see into people's souls.

Most female people aren't that gifted. And for women with autism, trauma, history of domestic violence, from races and cultures or many other vulnerabilities that mean they can't use a mixed sex space, when faced with someone they perceive as male, how that male person perceives themselves is not relevant.

That female person has to leave access to the female space, and surrender access to any space at all, so that the male person may have their preferred choice from the two facilities available to them.

So why does the male person matter and the female person doesn't?

Why is a designed, intended female space to meet the needs of all females have to become no longer accessible or inclusive to all females so that males can have their best fit from all spaces?

And pointing this out is 'hate'? Seriously? The service humans malfunctioning again.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 18:25

@FOJN

Trans people wanted in on a list of murdered women, even though no trans people had been murdered..

For anyone in doubt about the extremism of the current gender relgion just ponder that some adherents feel invalidated and discriminated against because none of them were murdered and then reflect that posters on this board have been accused of lacking empathy, even murdered women are just props to some of the activists.

It's absolutely breathtaking.

'Discriminated against for not being murdered'.

It really is a testament to the lengths people will go in order to get what they want. However inane, undeserved, or superficial it is.

Letsgetreadytocrumble · 18/05/2021 18:26

Another 'International day of......'? It feels like the last one was a few days ago! To be honest, when you have so many of these 'special' days/weeks/months, it's starts to devalue what you are actually trying to raise awareness of.

And plus, whatever it is, be it Pride, Lesbian Visibility week, international women's day - somehow the trans lobby always puts itself front and centre.

TinyRobins · 18/05/2021 18:26

I don’t want biological males in my toilet so nope I won’t be nice about it. I’m also not convinced that single lockable cubicles are the answer either. More likely for people to get trapped in them due to faulty locks, or be pushed inside where nobody can see, or take unwell and nobody know about it. It’s also easier to spot a vacant cubicle by the gap underneath, rather than a queue building up due to closed doors or faulty vacant sliders or men ‘checking’ if a toilet is free when a child hasn’t locked the door or the locks broken.

Nah
Sex segregated toilets are fine as they are. Campaign for third space if you want them.

Leafstamp · 18/05/2021 18:28

@FOJN

But perhaps OP and her Internet-challenged “friend” are firm advocates of #nodebate

Leaving us to talk amongst ourselves isn't a great strategy it just allows sunlight to be bought to the lurkers. I'd welcome reasoned debate but as that's not available I'll settle for sunlight.

Here comes the sun Smile Wine
Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 18:31

Some more for those who have stated how hateful this thread has been:

and just adding another section from the Event's Review Report - University of Essex for interested readers.

243.10. Furthermore the mere discussion of what “trans rights” entail cannot be regarded as a violation of those rights in a context where the proper extent of those rights is clearly not settled either in law or in public opinion, where it is the subject of an extant government consultation and where there is a potential conflict of rights (as discussed in §243.5 above).

Ie. supports the EHRC chair's statement over the weekend and completely shows that Stonewall's guidance as to what is transphobic is based on falsehoods.

I look forward to the Government's inquiry into just how Stonewall has been allowed for so long to brand discussion and debate as hateful.

Stroopwaffle5000 · 18/05/2021 18:33

@Eyesofdisarray

Patronising much??? Women don't object or persecute trans people, or attack or vilify them. We just want single sex- that's sex not gender- facilities, sports, refuges. Why don't you understand that women are infinitely more at risk of violence from men; and that trans-women retain male patterns of offences? Regarding the NHS: what about people waiting for operations? Cancer treatment? Mental health treatment? And you didn't mention gay/bisexual people either This reads like "educate yourselves" and I'm getting sick of it, really really sick of it
👏👏 Agree!
Erikrie · 18/05/2021 18:34

I look forward to the Government's inquiry into just how Stonewall has been allowed for so long to brand discussion and debate as hateful

Me too.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 18:35

I look forward to the Government's inquiry into just how Stonewall has been allowed for so long to brand discussion and debate as hateful.

Me too. And by that I mean I would really, really like to see the emails, letters, notes of phone calls, etc, from one person to another, to see how this all came about.

Because how, exactly, do you go about convincing lawmakers, decision-makers, schools, universities and governments, that a man is a woman?

GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 18:35

@Erikrie

I look forward to the Government's inquiry into just how Stonewall has been allowed for so long to brand discussion and debate as hateful

Me too.

Me too, but does anyone really believe it will happen?
Artichokeleaves · 18/05/2021 18:35

GreyhoundG1rl

In March this year, Jess Phillips read out in Parliament the names of 118 women killed in the last year by men to highlight the scale of male violence. The response from a trans lobbyist was to complain of transphobia because the list didn't include any trans women.

This thread may be of interest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189718-to-be-FURIOUS-that-Karen-Ingala-Smith-and-the-Counting-Dead-Women-Project-were-defamed

midgedude · 18/05/2021 18:36

There is also transgender Remembrance Day and a transgender youth day

SpindleWhorl · 18/05/2021 18:36

Apparently the OP made a brief foray back into the thread, but had a name-change fail so got their post deleted and scarpered.

Thanks, @GlassBoxSpectacular. Goodness. Quite the thrill ride.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 18:37

Me too, but does anyone really believe it will happen?

Fortunately FOIs are a thing. And there are an awful lot of motivated women.

littleburn · 18/05/2021 18:39

Wear what you want, present how you want. I don't have any issue with what a member of the male sex wears or how they cut their hair, what name they go under and so on.

Sex is a material reality. 'Gender' is a social construct that promotes a narrow definition of what it is to be of the male or female sex. Push against those stereotypes and widen the band width of what it is to be male or female. But please also recognise that being 'gender non-confirming' does not mean you are of the female sex. Woman is not clothing or hair or make up (or any other gender stereotype), it is a material, biological reality.

gottakeeponmovin · 18/05/2021 18:42

It would be nice if your friend actually listened to women's concerns instead of trying to educate us as to why we should accept people with penises in female spaces.

MrsArchchancellorRidcully · 18/05/2021 18:44

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

Spot on
Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 18:44

Me too, but does anyone really believe it will happen?

I would be watching the House of Lords over the coming 6 - 12 months. I think they are well aware of it and it could be that they waiting to see what happens to other 'groups' who have had significant access.

Considering Liz Truss also ignored Crispin Blunt and his group's diktat last year, and the fact that some activists on panels didn't bother hanging around and made big flounces leaving their contacts a whole two weeks early in protest, I think others in the government are well aware of the over reach.

I live in hope though. I have heard rumblings.

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 18:46

For anyone looking for other links and resources and some history, don't forget that this thread is available

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 18:55

I live in hope though. I have heard rumblings.
Ah, that's reassuring.

GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 18:56

[quote Artichokeleaves]GreyhoundG1rl

In March this year, Jess Phillips read out in Parliament the names of 118 women killed in the last year by men to highlight the scale of male violence. The response from a trans lobbyist was to complain of transphobia because the list didn't include any trans women.

This thread may be of interest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189718-to-be-FURIOUS-that-Karen-Ingala-Smith-and-the-Counting-Dead-Women-Project-were-defamed[/quote]
Holy fuck...

Leafstamp · 18/05/2021 18:58

Sex is a material reality. 'Gender' is a social construct that promotes a narrow definition of what it is to be of the male or female sex. Push against those stereotypes and widen the band width of what it is to be male or female. But please also recognise that being 'gender non-confirming' does not mean you are of the female sex. Woman is not clothing or hair or make up (or any other gender stereotype), it is a material, biological reality.

This!

In fact, even those working with trans people and campaigning for their rights are on record saying not dissimilar. :

Dr Dr Harriet Hutchinson, Community Organiser at Action for Trans Health Durham, said this recently in front of the Women and Equalities Committee:

...there is no way of proving your gender to somebody.

The idea of having to prove your gender is very reductive. It forces trans people to conform to stereotypes in order to receive a diagnosis, and then, of course, receive criticism for perpetuating gender stereotypes.

And therein is the problem - the unprovable, the indescribable (without reference to stereotypes) and therefore, as I would argue, the useless concept of 'gender'.

TheVampiresWife · 18/05/2021 18:59

My teenage DD was frozen out by her closest friends, labelled transphobic and bullied relentlessly for saying that as a lesbian, she was not interested in relationships with people who had penises. She was so badly bullied she began self harming and is still, several years later, on anti depressants. She has no friends.

What do you say to girls like her, OP? Y'know, given it's International Day Against Homophobia and all? (Actually it was yesterday but let's not split hairs.)

Erikrie · 18/05/2021 19:02

Me too, but does anyone really believe it will happen?

I remain as ever hopeful.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 18/05/2021 19:02

@Eyesofdisarray

Patronising much??? Women don't object or persecute trans people, or attack or vilify them. We just want single sex- that's sex not gender- facilities, sports, refuges. Why don't you understand that women are infinitely more at risk of violence from men; and that trans-women retain male patterns of offences? Regarding the NHS: what about people waiting for operations? Cancer treatment? Mental health treatment? And you didn't mention gay/bisexual people either This reads like "educate yourselves" and I'm getting sick of it, really really sick of it
This. Beautifully put, @Eyesofdisarray.

The reason we talk about women’s rights in discussions of trans rights is that, in so, so many cases, trans rights seem to negatively impact the rights, dignity and safety of women and girls.

Trans people don’t want their own spaces, they want ours.

I forget exactly where, but in a recent election, in a country where lists of candidates must be equal between men and women, of the 18 candidates in one area, 9 decided to identify as women. Hey presto, equality laws upheld. But the rights of women? Nope.

Swipe left for the next trending thread