A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

[Biber]

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

Well we do, but have been accused of being transphobic when pointing them out.

Haha, great minds!

Indeed, this is the case about the police officer.

As reported on May 23rd, 2017 archive.ph/vUiTH

The PC has two warrant cards, and can use either depending on which gender they identify with on any given day.

Known only as Callum or Abi, the Metropolitan Police officer served on the force for 13 years as a man.

Now the London-based officer has won the right to express their gender identity in the way they wish.

The groundbreaking step is part of a Met Police drive to encourage staff to be themselves at work.

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

The difference might be important to you, and, for any one knows, to Eddie. And there might well be a difference. I'm sure there is.

The point is that the motivation of the individual concerned is not really relevant.

I can't tell you the number of transwomen who have decided that their particular circumstances are the ones that should be recognised.

Be it looks (passing), surgery, gender dysphoria, gender euphoria, longevity, possession of a GRC, etc. The list is endless, and personal to who ever is in possession of that particular characteristic at any given time.

None of which is at the slightest bit relevant to women's consent.

As long as one woman says no, to any male, under any circumstances, then that's the end of it.

I have been told that I am mentally disabled and being Trans is a lifestyle choice
That's not fair at all. The poster who talked about mental disability clarified what they said - andcut was not this. Please don't twist it. I said that if Stonewall insists on categorizing men who "choose" to be female one day and male the next as trans, it is not surprising that women object. Do you disagree?

A message to your friend, OP

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

What is this heresy??

These people with the desperate need - the ones who would rather shit their pants than use a men's toilet - I don't think they'd agree.

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

We absolutely do understand the distinction, it's already been pointed out on this thread that Stonewalls trans umbrella is very unhelpful to people with gender dysphoria. However we are also aware that biological sex is a material reality which doesn't change no matter how well we understand the nuances of gender expression.

@PronounssheRa

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

Most here know that. Its stonewall, not women, who have expanded the definition of trans to include part time cross dressers etc

Stonewall and their partners and allies have brought this on themselves haven’t they.

The umbrella is too broad, so as a pp said, it’s now a straight no to all born males in female sex-segregated spaces.

The groundbreaking step is part of a Met Police drive to encourage staff to be themselves at work.

Given their recent ‘issues’, I’m not sure an ‘express yourself freely at work’ strategy is the wisest move for the Met.

Stonewall and their partners and allies have brought this on themselves haven’t they.

Yep. And here's the fallout from that. Women lived happily alongside the few transexuals that felt they needed to use women's spaces. It was fine. Now it's out of control with just anyone identifying as a woman with no need to do anything to commit to that. At the far extreme of that, beards, men's clothes, looking just like men in fact. It's taking the absolute piss. And here's the result of that. I'm sorry for the 'genuine' transexuals that were just getting on with their lives. They too have been a victim to this. But the answer now has to be no, because anything else puts women and girls at risk. Which is not, under any circumstances, acceptable.

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

Of course there is, Stonewall is to blame for widening the trans umbrella, not women who have said enough is enough.

I've many times read on here that the ideology and definition of Stonewall is not only damaging to women but to transexuals!

I really think your anger is levelled at the wrong people. Stonewall and its acceptance with no exception ideology has caused this reaction, and rightly so.

@Lonel

I have been told that I am mentally disabled and being Trans is a lifestyle choice That's not fair at all. The poster who talked about mental disability clarified what they said - andcut was not this. Please don't twist it. I said that if Stonewall insists on categorizing men who "choose" to be female one day and male the next as trans, it is not surprising that women object. Do you disagree?

" it could be argued that Trans people have mental health issues and are therefore disabled "

Again not sure how else that statement can be read.

And no I don't find it at all surprising that women object to men of any variety in female spaces. I have lost count of the amount of times I have said that single sex spaces need respecting.

It is not about access to female spaces at all though is it? It is about access to females. It is about wanting other people, whose comfort or consent you don't give a shit about, to make you feel better about yourself.

@twelly

Having a view does not make someone "phobic" that is bullying behaviour, people are entitled to their views, slinging insults is not civilised.

Sadly, on this issue, people are not entitled to their views: no debate, no dissent, no questions asked, unwavering and unequivocal capitulation, otherwise at best you’ll be ‘cancelled’/sacked, and at worst you’ll receive death threats, rape threats and an invitation to choke on some ‘lady dick’.

I think it is obvious that there is considerable disagreement amongst the community of trans identifying people re who is 'trans enough to use opposite sex facilities'.

So for example, we have a PP who is a transwoman basically saying 'yeah not Eddie Izzard'.

& if you & Eddie want to argue over your facilities, that's fine.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of women on this thread are saying: 'whatever - we just aren't happy with either of you in ours, which we would like to keep single sex'.

Not our problem to fix.

& actually, having been part of the alternative/goth community for several decades, which has always been very welcoming to non gender conforming people & especially males with 'feminine' traits, I think it's a shame we've had to harden our hearts - if you'd told me 20 years ago that I'd be objecting to cross dressing men in the Ladies in clubs, I'd have been quite surprised. All the ones I knew just wanted to get at the good mirrors.

But the TRAs lost me at no debate/prisons/sports/demanding sex with opposite sex gay people, & I'm afraid I like my boundaries to be clearly stated these days.

Female spaces are for the female sex. & I'll be happy to support any campaign for additional unisex spaces, but that's where I draw the line. Blame Stonewall & their silly umbrella, don't blame women.

And no I don't find it at all surprising that women object to men of any variety in female spaces. I have lost count of the amount of times I have said that single sex spaces need respecting.

Most people do understand the different motivations for transwomen. But we're not allowed to talk about it.

None of this can be laid at the door of women.

mental disability in British English
(ˈmɛntəl ˌdɪsəˈbɪlɪtɪ) a condition that limits a person's intellectual capacity, resulting directly or indirectly from injury to the brain or from abnormal neurological development.

mental health, noun, a person’s condition with regard to their psychological and emotional well-being.

It is not about access to female spaces at all though is it? It is about access to females. It is about wanting other people, whose comfort or consent you don't give a shit about, to make you feel better about yourself

Yes entirely this. It's the women themselves who are being used as the resource to validate born males. Without consent. If was anything else then transwomen would be campaigning for their own space or putting out a call to arms to educate and make men's spaces safer. But they don't. Well a few do because they get it. But many more don't want that.

*it could be argued that Trans people have mental health issues and are therefore disabled "

Again not sure how else that statement can be read.*
But that just means that you have a problem that interferes with your daily life. I have anxiety, which is a mental health issue. It doesn't make me less of a person. A pp said that tw would prefer to soil themselves than use a public toilet - do you think that is just fine? In any case, these comments weren't directly about you. I don't think all posts about women are personal to me. Why not try not thinking we're all talking about you - we're not.

@Imasoulman

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

That is part of the issue though. If trans women have access to previously single sex toilets, when someone who looks like Eddie izzard walks in, a woman knows that a natal man with a penis is in the toilet which may be a quiet space with not many people around. They may be a trans woman, or they may be gender fluid, which you see as something altogether different. But in presentation they will be the same as it's very rare (as my trans mates themselves say) for someone to 'pass' completely. I know some trans women use that phrase and some don't so apologies if it's jarring.

For women who have experienced trauma at the hands of men, can you understand how scary it might feel to see a natal male walking into the toilets they're in?

For women who aren't allowed to share private spaces with men for religious reasons, can you understand the difficulty that creates?

For girls aged say 12/13/14+, can you understand how vulnerable they might feel?

For someone having a terrible period, can you understand how vulnerable and uncomfortable they might feel?

To show true empathy it would be good if you could acknowledge that you can empathise with the women and girls in those scenarios.

And then explain why you think they should get over it and not voice their discomfort at the proposition of toilets being used on the basis of self ID?

And also if you think them voicing their discomfort means they are transphobic?

I am genuinely asking these questions to try to discuss this as I find your position hard to understand if you say you are empathetic, so I want to try to understand.

My empathy has limits, too. No bigotry or intolerance. That's why I'm a trans ally, amongst other things. I'm glad you don't give in to bullies.

On or around International Women's Day this year, two prominent trans 'influencers' made some pretty hateful and very mocking remarks on women's toilet habits and the sounds that women make in the toilet. These were done in a way that was very misogynistic.

Tell us again, why males who have transitioned should have priority over female's needs for dignity and privacy when these transitioned males and a slew of followers joining in, were able to do this. I did not see ONE person tell them they were out of line when they did this who was a trans ally. Was this ok?

We are told by these two people that all they want to do when they go to the toilets is 'pee'? It was rather a different story that day on twitter and frankly it completely undermines their and any person who joined in that day's assertions.

Are you happy that women are mocked en masse for the sounds of urine hitting the toilet bowl and having to navigate dirty toilet seats ?

@Tibtom

It is not about access to female spaces at all though is it? It is about access to females. It is about wanting other people, whose comfort or consent you don't give a shit about, to make you feel better about yourself.

Yes, it is about access to females. Because if all the women left, the space would become unappealing. The women in it are a crucial part. It can't be a woman's space if there are no women in it.

And not just women, but women when they are at their most vulnerable. Removing clothing, or in prison, or having been raped, in hospital. Women are being used as a resource, and it's the most vulnerable women in society.

@Helleofabore

My empathy has limits, too. No bigotry or intolerance. That's why I'm a trans ally, amongst other things. I'm glad you don't give in to bullies.

On or around International Women's Day this year, two prominent trans 'influencers' made some pretty hateful and very mocking remarks on women's toilet habits and the sounds that women make in the toilet. These were done in a way that was very misogynistic.

Tell us again, why males who have transitioned should have priority over female's needs for dignity and privacy when these transitioned males and a slew of followers joining in, were able to do this. I did not see ONE person tell them they were out of line when they did this who was a trans ally. Was this ok?

We are told by these two people that all they want to do when they go to the toilets is 'pee'? It was rather a different story that day on twitter and frankly it completely undermines their and any person who joined in that day's assertions.

Are you happy that women are mocked en masse for the sounds of urine hitting the toilet bowl and having to navigate dirty toilet seats ?

This is one for the OP to answer too I think. @Biber

You need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between Eddie Izzard etc and people who desperately need to transition.

I understand that, or at least I try to.

One thing I struggle with is that some people are campaigning to allow the Eddie Izzard type of trans women the same rights as gender dysphoric, have been in therapy for years, are desperately unhappy and go though full medical transition types of trans women. and that's not okay with me.

As as aside I do recognise that some of the comments on this thread and on mumsnet in general must feel terribly hurtful to read, if you identify as (or are) in the same group as the people being talked about. I'm sorry that that's your experience. Everybody deserves basic human dignity ( even those who I disagree with )