Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 14:11

@Sorka

I didn’t read your entire waffley essay. Here’s some key points for you:
  • Sex segregated facilities (toilets, jails, changing rooms) exist for reasons of privacy, dignity and for women’s safety. Yes that’s right women. We need sex segregated spaces for safety. From men. Not all men no, but some men.
  • Sex segregated sports exist for reasons of fairness. Men are on the whole bigger, faster and stronger than women. That’s why we have sex segregated sports. If you think people born male should get to play women’s sports, ask yourself why we have sex segregated sports in the first place. Then take a look of that photo of the person in New Zealand who was mediocre at men’s sports and is now winning gold at women’s weightlifting. The photo of that person with two crestfallen women of colour whose hard fought for 1st and 2nd place have been stolen from them says everything.

I don’t care how your friend feels about him or herself. I do care about women’s rights and protections being trampled on and our very existence being erased.

I care very much that we can’t even safely speak about our beliefs that women are people born with female reproductive organs who go through a very different physical, cultural and social experience to men. See for example the law student in danger of being thrown of her course and her career destroyed before it’s even begun because she dared to say she believes women are people born with female reproductive organs.

Have you felt the need to lecture any men today? Have you told any men that some men have vaginas lately? Have you come up with any terms to lesson their biological identity like ‘chest-feeding’ for women? Are prostate exams still allowed to be advertised as something aimed at men? Or people with prostates? Which is still more meaningful than people with cervixes, which many women will not recognise includes them.

This is a really good post and well worth repeating!

It is balanced, fair, based on real life, real evidence and grounded.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 14:12

There's no empathy

Where is your empathy for women and girls who don't share your belief in gender identity ideology, and just see a group of males feeling entitled to do exactly what they like without any consideration for the people that they supposedly feel kindred with?

Flapjak · 18/05/2021 14:12

Why should a male sexed persons gender identity override my sex based need for female only toilets .

SoMuchForSummerLove · 18/05/2021 14:12

Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear

OP - in whatever username you prefer to reply - what do you think will happen to women once predatory men are able to simply and falsely assume trans status in order to access women's private spaces?

I don't think we'll all traipse about the street shitting our pants to be honest, but do you genuinely not see the position women and girls are put in when you give predatory men utterly free access to them?

SneakAttackDamage · 18/05/2021 14:16

First of all, as the OP has noted in their title, this is something that a trans-person wrote for International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia. It was posted by the OP today - that does not mean that it was written today.

Secondly - this was written by a trans-person. Criticising them, when they are talking about their own knowledge and experiences, for not mentioning homophobia or biphobia implies that if you can only write something in response to International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia, if you are bi, gay AND trans. By the same logic, I would not be able to write something to explain my thoughts/experiences of biphobia forthat day, as I am unable to talk about being trans.

Thirdly, the argument appears to be that someone who has transitioned, or is going through the process of transitioning, should not be permitted to use the single sex space of the gender to which they are transitioning, because this could be abused by someone to gain entry to that single sex space for nefarious purposes. However, this implies that someone who is biologically one sex, but fully passes for the other is permitted to use this space,leading to the same outcome that someone could say they have transitioned to gain false entry. Either way, there is going to be someone presenting as the opposite sex in a single sex space, and this can be abused.

I do believe that sport and prison are different matters entirely. Biology provides a physical advantage to one sex or the other depending on the sport, and you give up certain rights and privileges if you break the law - although it is the duty of the state to keep you safe while in their care.

Naunet · 18/05/2021 14:16

Are we supposed to pretend that there have NOT been a lot of transwomen who have bragged about masturbating in female public toilets getting off specifically because they know women were outside and could hear tgem and become uncomfortable? Shall we pretend no transwoman gas been ogling female preteens and trying to discuss very intimate issues with perfect strangers in the public toilets for their own sexual gratification? Shall we also pretend that no transwoman has ever slid a phone under the partition to film a woman peeing? Sure! Lets just lie and say that it never happened. It is not like women and girls deserve to be safe. We are just utilities to be used for men's gratification. How dare anyone claim otherwise?

Isn’t their whole M.O. about denying reality though? Seems pretty in keeping to pretend this isn’t happening too.

purpleboy · 18/05/2021 14:17

@MmeLaraque seeing as you call MN transphobic, could you enlighten me as to what is transphobic about women wanting to retain their sex based rights? And presumably as you think it's transphobic you must have some answers to how we can solve these issues so both women and trans women are happy?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 14:18

And presumably as you think it's transphobic you must have some answers to how we can solve these issues so both women and trans women are happy?

Yes. All ears for some reassurance and constructive comments.

Naunet · 18/05/2021 14:19

Thirdly, the argument appears to be that someone who has transitioned, or is going through the process of transitioning, should not be permitted to use the single sex space of the gender to which they are transitioning

Why does gender trump sex? Single SEX spaces are just that, gender is irrelevant.

purpleboy · 18/05/2021 14:20

Eresh I feel really confident the pp will be able to answer those questions.....honestly......I don't think we will be waiting long at all......

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 18/05/2021 14:21

As a female I feel completely comfortable with trans men in my sex segregated spaces. I welcome them and wholeheartedly embrace their gender diversity within the female sex.

This! This this this. Express your gender however you choose, but respect the realities of the sex based biological differences between men and women. I couldn't care less if a trans man would care to use the womens bathroom to avoid the risk of physical violence in the men's bathroom - very understandable in a biologically XX body lacking the extra height, bone robustness and muscle mass provided by testosterone when growing up.

Lonel · 18/05/2021 14:27

I do believe that sport and prison are different matters entirely.
Unfortunately you don't get to decide. Once we (society) have accepted that gender trumps sex this is applied everywhere. This is why you are seeing a pushback on toilets - it's the thin end of a very complicated wedge.Wink We have seen this happen already with trans activists claiming that legal sex is equivalent to biological sex. Personally I think the trans rights movement at the moment is doing a good job of making people aware of how unreasonable their current stance is but I feel sorry for the majority of reasonable trans people who are caught in the crossfire. Stonewall has a lot to answer for - not least why the T is now more important than the L!

OwlBeThere · 18/05/2021 14:29

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

As a female I feel completely comfortable with trans men in my sex segregated spaces. I welcome them and wholeheartedly embrace their gender diversity within the female sex.

This! This this this. Express your gender however you choose, but respect the realities of the sex based biological differences between men and women. I couldn't care less if a trans man would care to use the womens bathroom to avoid the risk of physical violence in the men's bathroom - very understandable in a biologically XX body lacking the extra height, bone robustness and muscle mass provided by testosterone when growing up.

But that doesn’t help transwomen who are at risk from men. I don’t see why we can’t have single cubicle, unisex toilets. 🤷🏼‍♀️
CatsArePeople · 18/05/2021 14:30

we're supposed to just believe that?

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 14:31

There's no empathy, and I really hope that none of the people who've posted anti-trans comments have a trans child/person in their family.

There are quite a few regular posters on MN that have trans people in their family. They always have differing perspectives and it is always worth listening to each and every one of the them. It is likely that some of them have posted on this thread.

However, at what point do the rights of males who have transitioned take priority to females that require single sex spaces? And can you articulate why you feel that should happen?

The ignorance and bigotry demonstrated thus far by anti-trans posters is a really sad reflection of the MN community.

So far, I have seen ignorance displayed by people. Such as inferring that woman discussing their rights to single sex toilets and spaces as 'what about the women' like it was the same as racism. And posters agreeing with that poster. Please confirm why women do NOT have a say in the discussion around single sex toilets that directly impacts on them. Ignorance?

PPs have noted that MN is notoriously anti-transgender. The threads I've read containing posts about trans people have certainly supported that view and reputation.

If your definition of 'anti-transgender' is people acknowledging the impact on the rights of females, including the rights needed to address the centuries of discrimination experienced by females due to their sexed bodies, then yes, I guess you would see plenty of threads that fit your definition.

Luckily the EHRC just released a statement that says discussion about this is NOT phobic at all despite many political parties, many other groups framing it that way.

Please report any transphobic posts.

The anti-trans views expressed so regularly on MN are the reasons why so many trans people don't want to go out at all.

I would look at the groups that are spreading the message that people hate trans people to blame for that. Women stating their boundaries and saying 'no, I have needs and they also need to be considered' being framed as being 'hateful' and the reason that people cannot leave their houses is a silencing tactic that has been long used.

Luckily, we also know that there are many trans people who also agree that the rights for females can and should be upheld and not negatively impacted by trans rights. They don't believe the groups and the influencers who have pushed the narrative that any action other than full agreement is 'hate'.

I suggest that if you have trans people in your life, you also make sure that they realise that disagreement does not mean hate. That other's also have needs that have to be balanced. And that stating that they do not have priority does not mean they are hated and in danger.

Naunet · 18/05/2021 14:34

But that doesn’t help transwomen who are at risk from men.
I don’t see why we can’t have single cubicle, unisex toilets

Maybe go ask men to help transwomen feel safer then. It’s not a issue for women to solve, we’re too busy trying to get men to stop attacking us.

midgedude · 18/05/2021 14:35

All people are at risk from men.

We don't have all unisex because it's a lot cheaper to have open plan spaces (and many women would restrict thier activities if the loos were unisex , but that's only women so it apparently doesn't matter )

Fully self continued cubicles take a lot of space

But o do think there should be more so that people who are unhappy with single sex space have an option

Cocolapew · 18/05/2021 14:36

I was sexually assaulted in a single space toilet with floor to ceiling walls and door. A man pushed his way in behind me and locked the door. Because it was inclosed nobody heard me screaming for help or my head being banged off the sink.
Where is your emapathy for me op? Are my feelings not important because I'm a woman?
I want to use open toilets only accessible to woman, the sort that don't have a penis.

AnotherKrampus · 18/05/2021 14:37

We, women, have a right to sex-based separate toilets. That's all there is to it. And Trans people are among the currently least discriminated group of people.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/05/2021 14:39

@OwlBeThere

I don’t see why we can’t have single cubicle, unisex toilets.

You don't see why that isn't financially viable?

Imagine the cost of doing so, considering the number of people who actively want single sex toilets abolished and replaced.

Many people (a huge majority of women and also some men) strongly don't want that to happen while many others are meh about it. A very small, but vocal, group of people are pro that change.

I think you'd find it was an incredibly disproportionate allocation of money if government funded.

Why should that money be spent to make a very small minority of people feel safer in toilets rather than initiatives to tackle the reason they feel unsafe (male violence) and support victims of male violence and in doing so help 50% of the population feel safer?

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 18/05/2021 14:40

Thirdly, the argument appears to be that someone who has transitioned, or is going through the process of transitioning, should not be permitted to use the single sex space of the gender to which they are transitioning, because this could be abused by someone to gain entry to that single sex space for nefarious purposes. However, this implies that someone who is biologically one sex, but fully passes for the other is permitted to use this space, leading to the same outcome that someone could say they have transitioned to gain false entry. Either way, there is going to be someone presenting as the opposite sex in a single sex space, and this can be abused.

It doesn't matter whether a transwoman 'passes' or not, they should use the gent's.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/05/2021 14:40

@Cocolapew

I was sexually assaulted in a single space toilet with floor to ceiling walls and door. A man pushed his way in behind me and locked the door. Because it was inclosed nobody heard me screaming for help or my head being banged off the sink. Where is your emapathy for me op? Are my feelings not important because I'm a woman? I want to use open toilets only accessible to woman, the sort that don't have a penis.
This is horrific, I am so so sorry you went through that Thanks
ArabellaScott · 18/05/2021 14:40

Cocolapew Flowers

NewlyGranny · 18/05/2021 14:40

Transwomen who are at risk of violence in men's toilets are at risk, for sure. But they are at risk from men, not from women. And, you know, NAMALT! we keep being told this, so transwomen need to get that memo, too. Most men don't want to beat them up and won't bother them in the toilets.

Of course, the problem is that you just don't know which men will turn on you and there's now way of telling. Welcome to our world.

How is it that, whoever is at risk from male violence, it's somehow twisted around to be women's fault?

Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 14:41

Flowers to all women who have felt the need to have to publicly discuss their trauma in an attempt to have their needs heard.

It is reprehensible that this continues to be needed before anyone takes any notice.