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A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Helleofabore · 18/05/2021 13:38

LimpLettice

I think there is a line now for posters to provide evidenced support about the difference in crime rates for transitioned males and males in general.

Imagine if those statistics actually existed that proved that upon transitioning, which now simply means a declaration when asked, sex crime risk diminished to female level. ...

Mumtwoboys90 · 18/05/2021 13:38

just Confused
i dont care if someone thinks they are a woman thats great- but i dont want a man with a penis in the same loo as me and my daughters

ChubbyMsSunshine · 18/05/2021 13:38

@ThewaterlilliesofGiverny

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans.

Seems reasonable to me.

@ThewaterlilliesofGiverny so their desire to feel safe trumps the desires of actual women - whose facilities they were in - to feel safe.

Why is that acceptable to you?

AfternoonToffee · 18/05/2021 13:41

I happily use any toilet when I need to and am not bothered about who else is there. (Generally speaking)

Not about me though is. I'm old enough and ugly enough to know the world doesn't revolve around me.

Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 13:42

Women are 18 times more likely to be assaulted in mixed sex (cubicle) changing rooms.

Important point. There is nothing predjudiced about recognising the above reality and protecting women by providing single sex public spaces.

A - I’d happily defend the protection, privacy and dignity of sexes to have single sex spaces, and in particular of the additional vulnerability of women’s spaces.

B - I’d happily sign any petition calling for a third space of separate cubicles, wards, toilets or third mixed spaces which would satisfy a trans person’s wishes.

I would be most unhappy if B meant that there was no A. And the evidence says that harm would occur for group A.

Now... what exactly is there to argue about?! I really don’t get it!

BahHumbygge · 18/05/2021 13:42

Sorry, mixed sex facilities don't work for me, and I shouldn't have to have or explain a trauma history in order for my opinion to be considered valid.

Firstly, it's not so much that transwomen are predators, it's that predators will pretend to be transwomen in order to access women's facilities.

Secondly in any case, I do not share anything in common with transwomen that I should made to share facilities with them.

TW

Biological sex = male
Gender ID = feminine

Me

Biological sex = female
Gender ID = none

Unless you're arguing that all toilets/facilities should be completely mixed sex anyway, which this Independent article shows, is a complete disaster for women, as they're much more likely to be assaulted in them.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

If you're arguing that I must have a gender identity, that smacks of compelled femininity, which is the epitome of sexism... that females must be feminine in order to be considered women. I am not adopting an oppressive concept about myself in order to be an identity prop for dysphoric males.

tothinkyesitis · 18/05/2021 13:44

RE sex crime and transgenderism .

I had a woman - so I thought - ask to buy second hand clothes I was selling . Arranged to meet in a public place, she would give me £30 for them etc .

The night before she sent me a message telling me she was man called Dave, she was planning to wank with them and was looking forward to meeting me the next day .

Not sure what prompted Dave to tell me - perhaps he got a kick out of knowing it would upset me? Dave never did get the clothes he asked for; and I’ve never sold anything online since!

That’s why people are understandably wary; sick individuals use transgenderism as a way to validate their fetishes . If you allow anyone who wants to use ladies loos (etc, etc) you’re opening the door to this too, unfortunately .

SoMuchForSummerLove · 18/05/2021 13:44

I 100% do not care if trans people want to use a bloody public toilet.

What worries me is men claiming they're trans to gain access to women and children in their private spaces and vulnerable situations.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/866968/sex-offender-who-targeted-young-children-in-fife-supermarket-toilets-given-jail-warning-for-breaching-strict-community-order/

Oh but wait, that never happens.

Naunet · 18/05/2021 13:45

I totally agree with you. Trans issues and women’s issues are separate, and that thinking needs to apply in both directions. So responding to a post about transphobia with the question ‘what about women?’ isn’t appropriate. But by the same token, women’s initiatives shouldn’t be hijacked by the questions ‘what about transwomen? Why isn’t this initiative trans-inclusive?’

Trans issues and women’s issues should be separate, but when they demand access to women’s hard won single sex spaces, sports, prisons etc, then there is a very obvious clash. Women owe no one their silence on these matters.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 13:46

Btw, this probably won't be popular, but if your friends are so keen to avoid the correctly sexed bathroom (despite very little evidence of actual assaults in them) that they are willing to shit themselves in public, then I'm afraid it absolutely is a mental health issue.

Yeah, I'm not sure that piece of information (I was going to say nugget 🤣), has done the OP's argument any favours.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/05/2021 13:46

Trans issues and women’s issues are separate, and that thinking needs to apply in both directions. So responding to a post about transphobia with the question ‘what about women?’ isn’t appropriate. But by the same token, women’s initiatives shouldn’t be hijacked by the questions ‘what about transwomen? Why isn’t this initiative trans-inclusive?’

Because it's OUR identities, protected spaces, medical literature, sporting events, even marketed products, that the TRA are trying to appropriate. Because, sometimes, rights conflict. Women are not the ones who ever made trans issues our specific problem, or who demanded that others roll over and cede over their hard-won and still too-few rights to us, or issued threats of death, sexual violence, kerb-stomping, etc when someone said: 'just a moment, there are safeguarding issues at stake here', or suggested the mere mention of said safeguarding issues were a transphobic dog-whistle.

You can thank the TRA lobby for all of the above.

Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 13:47

@BahHumbygge I’m not sure how anyone could argue against your view. I’m not sure why people are making you defend yourself either. Why are single spaces to be defended by women?

They came about because of real harm that occurred in mixed spaces. I don’t know why anyone for any reason would want single spaces gone?

The world is a little crazy Wink

BrumBoo · 18/05/2021 13:47

@KarmaKarmaKarmaChameleon

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

I totally agree with you. Trans issues and women’s issues are separate, and that thinking needs to apply in both directions. So responding to a post about transphobia with the question ‘what about women?’ isn’t appropriate. But by the same token, women’s initiatives shouldn’t be hijacked by the questions ‘what about transwomen? Why isn’t this initiative trans-inclusive?’

Trans women are women. Until a 'trans issue' arises and biological women should butt out. When issues facing women on a sex-based issue arises, it's transphobic to exclude trans women as they are women. Welcome to a world where those with penises hold all the cards, even on issues that directly affect women and their rights.
Sorka · 18/05/2021 13:48

I didn’t read your entire waffley essay. Here’s some key points for you:

  • Sex segregated facilities (toilets, jails, changing rooms) exist for reasons of privacy, dignity and for women’s safety. Yes that’s right women. We need sex segregated spaces for safety. From men. Not all men no, but some men.
  • Sex segregated sports exist for reasons of fairness. Men are on the whole bigger, faster and stronger than women. That’s why we have sex segregated sports. If you think people born male should get to play women’s sports, ask yourself why we have sex segregated sports in the first place. Then take a look of that photo of the person in New Zealand who was mediocre at men’s sports and is now winning gold at women’s weightlifting. The photo of that person with two crestfallen women of colour whose hard fought for 1st and 2nd place have been stolen from them says everything.

I don’t care how your friend feels about him or herself. I do care about women’s rights and protections being trampled on and our very existence being erased.

I care very much that we can’t even safely speak about our beliefs that women are people born with female reproductive organs who go through a very different physical, cultural and social experience to men. See for example the law student in danger of being thrown of her course and her career destroyed before it’s even begun because she dared to say she believes women are people born with female reproductive organs.

Have you felt the need to lecture any men today? Have you told any men that some men have vaginas lately? Have you come up with any terms to lesson their biological identity like ‘chest-feeding’ for women? Are prostate exams still allowed to be advertised as something aimed at men? Or people with prostates? Which is still more meaningful than people with cervixes, which many women will not recognise includes them.

Hoppinggreen · 18/05/2021 13:48

@AfternoonToffee

I happily use any toilet when I need to and am not bothered about who else is there. (Generally speaking)

Not about me though is. I'm old enough and ugly enough to know the world doesn't revolve around me.

Yes, I am old and bolshy enough to challenge anyone who makes me feel uncomfortable in a place they shouldn’t be. 16 year old DD not so much, so my concern is for her and her generation- despite the fact that wanting to protect them means they think i am a Transphobe
Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 13:50

Sorry, I”m a little dense on this thread...

So if I am unhappy about single sex spaces being made mixed... because of so many studies on the harms to women...

...then I am homophobic?! Is that right?

Why the obsession with making single sex toilets mixed toilets OP? What has that got to do with trans issues?

GuidonianHand · 18/05/2021 13:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MmeLaraque · 18/05/2021 13:52

@Caplin

OP, I agree with you, but on Mumsnet there is no empathy for trans people, just dogma for a risk which is miniscule at best.

On the basis I doubt any of the people getting their knickers in a knot have ever met a trans person, let alone been assaulted by one, I fear this is an issue which we will never convince them of.

But FWIW I am a trans ally and always will be.

There's no empathy, and I really hope that none of the people who've posted anti-trans comments have a trans child/person in their family. That would be an utterly miserable child/person. The ignorance and bigotry demonstrated thus far by anti-trans posters is a really sad reflection of the MN community.

PPs have noted that MN is notoriously anti-transgender. The threads I've read containing posts about trans people have certainly supported that view and reputation.

The anti-trans views expressed so regularly on MN are the reasons why so many trans people don't want to go out at all.

Trans ally here, too.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/05/2021 13:52

Name change fail?

Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 13:52

Trans women are women. Until a 'trans issue' arises and biological women should butt out.

I honesty have NO idea what you are talking about?!

Have I woken up in some parallel universe where nothing is real?!

Claire4567 · 18/05/2021 13:53

Name change fail OP? @GuidonianHand

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 13:53

Trans issues and women’s issues are separate, and that thinking needs to apply in both directions. So responding to a post about transphobia with the question ‘what about women?’ isn’t appropriate.

The implication is that women's rights to privacy and dignity in public spaces are less important than trans people's wish to be included in opposite sex spaces. Sorry, people don't just get to preach their political and ideological beliefs, where those affect others, without challenge.

LimpLettice · 18/05/2021 13:53

@Helleofabore

LimpLettice

I think there is a line now for posters to provide evidenced support about the difference in crime rates for transitioned males and males in general.

Imagine if those statistics actually existed that proved that upon transitioning, which now simply means a declaration when asked, sex crime risk diminished to female level. ...

If only that happened, it would be great. Perfect!It's the same old problem. No one is allowed to measure or quantify 'transition' in any way. Izzard can claim 'girl mode' and be applauded for chasing teen girls out of public toilets. It's an own goal because it makes the only acceptable solution 'none then'.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 13:54

I honesty have NO idea what you are talking about?!

I think the pp was commenting on the "have my cake and eat it" nature of much trans activism.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 13:55

The ignorance and bigotry demonstrated thus far by anti-trans posters is a really sad reflection of the MN community.

What ignorance? Seriously, engage some critical thinking for once.