A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

[Biber]

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5189662

@GreyhoundG1rl

You also can't tell if a women has a predilcition to violence but I'm guessing that doesn't stop you from using the women's toilets

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society

No woman alive has ever felt unsafe using women's toilets because there are other women in there.

To be fair, that's not true.

I've felt afraid when loos have what seem like gangs of women in. And at school I was scared to go to the loo because girls hung around smoking and being vile to other girls. And, for some odd reason, throwing wet tampons on the ceiling.

Well the toilet thing is all moot now.

Unless the single sex exemptions in the EA 2010 are applied and enforced then single sex/mixed sex will make little to no difference. It is absolutely a step in the right direction, it's an admissions that mixed sex facilities are less safe and not popular with your average person.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/3624733/scotland-yard-police-officer-has-become-britains-first-gender-fluid-cop-and-has-both-male-and-female-ids-for-work/amp/

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

Hear hear.👏👏

Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear

That's the bit where you lost me, OP.

@financialrecovery

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

This with bells on.

I’m with you end your friend op.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Statistics drastically disagree with you.

I know, how can people come out with this nonsense?

Because it is part of the 'bingo' card....

I don’t want people with penises to use the same toilet facilities as me. To me that is a woman’s safe space. To let people with penises in is erasing women’s rights in my view and is therefore misogynistic.

@OwlBeThere
"But I fear you’re wasting your breath on mumsnet OP. Most people here seem to think transwomen are all rapists and transmen are women who just want to be validated."

No. "Most people on here" are women who want to maintain the small amount of security and privacy that single sex spaces give them. It doesn't mean they're anti-trans. Just pro-female.

The only solution for this issue as far as I can see is 100% private unisex toilet cubicles. But even then there are still issues around access.

@HollowTalk

Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear

That's the bit where you lost me, OP.

If they have a penis they can do a standing up wee behind a bush. Much easier for them than for people without penises.

@financialrecovery

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

Funny how very few men are complaining about trans men using their toilets isn't it?

Of course it's about women's rights when those rights are being minimised under the name of inclusivity, for the benefit of members of the male sex.

No one uses them unless the really have to.

Me I use them, all the time, I work out on sites, driving between roads and schemes with no access to other toilets. Some of the toilets I use are in beauty spots which are crowded in the summer months but in the winter there could only be me.

Now if I see what I perceive as a man close by, I will wait until they have left (actually driven off) before using the toilet.

What I am trying to say is I am worried about the man/TW (how do I tell with the stonewall definition) they could seriously hurt me, yet a TW has nothing to fear from me, as I'm half their size. So yeah argue for a third space and stay away from women's hard fought for facilities.

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

It has everything to do with women when it is impacting on their rights and hard won safe spaces, and the right to compete against women in sport.

@MaxNormal

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you

The experience of women, right there.

This.

Ereshkigalangcleg
Statistics drastically disagree with you.

I know, how can people come out with this nonsense?

I think it’s a result of getting your edumcation from Twitter misogynists.

@RockPainting

"Women exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is a woman and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all women are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, women have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be female, and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies."

There you go OP, I've made some changes for you.

This. Exactly this.

I am stunned that op has a posting history. Maybe she will be back.

They fall under Stonewall's trans umbrella and they are explicitly included in policies. So yes they are, for all intents and purposes. So you have Phil/Pippa Bunce winning women's awards, Eddie Izzard looking to run on an All Women Shortlist but take male acting roles, and gender fluid police people having a warrant card for both gender identities.

It's quite staggering isn't it? It's almost comical, if it wasn't so bloody misogynistic.

Interesting that @Biber has started a finger-wagging, non-AIBU on behalf of a "friend", yet has subsequently declined to engage with the thread in any way, shape or form.

I wonder what was their motivation in posting a proxy thread on this issue? It certainly wasn't intended to raise awareness of homophobia or biphobia, as they receive nary a mention (they're also a day late, as the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia was yesterday).

There was a recent incursion of posters posting trans-related threads and then declining to engage with them, which was subsequently discovered to be an exercise in garnering screenshots to take back to Twitter in an effort to prove that MN is a trans-hate site and get it 'cancelled'.

I'm sure the OP will be back soon to assure us that this was not the case here, and to discuss homophobia and biphobia in equal measure, rather than focussing solely on trans people and (to quote directly from the OP) their desire "to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear".

The toilet issue is not about exclusion of trans people.

Its about the confusing and biologically incorrect conflation of sex and gender.

Some spaces are sex segregated, ie based on the chromosomes that drive sexual dimorphism, for the safety of women, as the sex with physically smaller size and reduced muscle mass/bone density. It is not appropriate to make those spaces segregated based on gender due to the vulnerable nature of the people engaged in the activities that take place within.

Of course in an ideal world where cost & space isn't an issue every single toilet everywhere would be a single enclosed unit, changing places accessible, and free for either sex to use. In reality this isnt possible and sex segregation is the most appropriate alternative.

MN don’t seem to understand the difference between predators and trans people.

This is a nonsense. We can't tell the difference between transwomen and any other man. Don't bring in ftm, we're not afraid of them. You are denying the basic tenets of safeguarding with this rubbish. The whole point is to minimise risk. Women know we are at risk from men. We don't know which ones until they do something, so spaces in which we are vulnerable MUST be kept single sex. Full stop. Until you can give e a measurable, definable moment at which any man who says he is now a woman is one, you cannot expect us to just pretend this risk no longer exists. And, hint, that will be never because studies show those who transition do not have significantly different offending rates, in fact those who dress are significantly more likely to commit sex offences than gen pop. Except, I have read, ftm, because of that pesky testosterone.

Btw, this probably won't be popular, but if your friends are so keen to avoid the correctly sexed bathroom (despite very little evidence of actual assaults in them) that they are willing to shit themselves in public, then I'm afraid it absolutely is a mental health issue. In which case capitulation and throwing hormones or surgical intervention at the problem is wrong and they require a different sort of help.

Also we aren't discussing women's rights. She was discussing trans.

It's like discussing racism and saying "what about white people?"

Well yes but this isn't the experience we're discussing. Nobody is saying they aren't important and don't experience problems. But the focus needs to be on solely trans problems at times.

I totally agree with you. Trans issues and women’s issues are separate, and that thinking needs to apply in both directions. So responding to a post about transphobia with the question ‘what about women?’ isn’t appropriate. But by the same token, women’s initiatives shouldn’t be hijacked by the questions ‘what about transwomen? Why isn’t this initiative trans-inclusive?’

Many years ago my friend told me her trans friend felt safer using the women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case they got attacked for being trans. Seems reasonable to me.

Many years ago and still today, me and the other women I know feel safer using the single sex women’s toilets (which after all are in locked door cubicles) rather than the gents, in case we get attacked for being women or cannot use the facilities if natal men are there due to things like religion or anxiety. Seems reasonable to me.