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A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
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21
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/05/2021 12:57

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society.

As a victim of rape who suffered for years with PTSD, I find this comment gratuitously offensive.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 12:58

@pennylane83

Many women would not feel safe using public toilets if men are allowed free access. This would lead to women not going out. We can't tell is a person is a transwoman or a predatory male

You also can't tell if a women has a predilcition to violence but I'm guessing that doesn't stop you from using the women's toilets.

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society.

It's a pretty good indication. 98% of all sex crimes are committed by males.
GreyhoundG1rl · 18/05/2021 12:59

You also can't tell if a women has a predilcition to violence but I'm guessing that doesn't stop you from using the women's toilets

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society

No woman alive has ever felt unsafe using women's toilets because there are other women in there.

TheIncredibleBookEatingManchot · 18/05/2021 12:59

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A place specially designated to discuss women's rights. The whole purpose of this board is to centre women's rights.

To be fair this thread is in AIBU not FWR.

Sorry thought this was on FWR. Ignore me everybody.Blush
Mowzy · 18/05/2021 12:59

@lifeturnsonadime

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society.

How strange, crime stats do NOT seem to support this assertion.

However now people with penises are being recorded as women when they commit crimes on the basis of self ID these stats may be skewed in the future.

Yes it is.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/05/2021 13:00

Men commit the vast vast majority of violent crime in the UK.

My DH is lovely though so I’m sure women won’t mind him being in their private spaces right? I mean I’ve said he’s nice that should be good enough right? Or you know maybe not....

Being wary of men however they present isn’t prejudice its just common sense

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/05/2021 13:01

@MrsWooster

I can’t be the only person who wonders about the good faith of a plopper who talks about “stinking mess” in underwear ahem, poo troll
Indeed! Noticeably unusual phrasing, wasn’t it? Why the need to be so graphic?

I can think of one possible reason but I’d probably get deleted if I named it.

slug · 18/05/2021 13:01

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you.

Fun fact I discovered yesterday. In the USA, where violence against trans is arguably higher than the UK (arguable because there is little in the way of statistics to back this up) The murder rate of babies under the age of one year is five times higher than the trans murder rate.

Where's the international day of of action against baby murder?

Lonel · 18/05/2021 13:02

It's comments like the one above (about men being no more of a danger than women) that make me despair. How is it possible to be on this planet for years and not notice that most men are stronger than most women?? And that's even before you look at the statistics for sexual violence. The mind boggles.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 13:03

The murder rate of babies under the age of one year is five times higher than the trans murder rate.

Yes, I read that. Awful though the subject is, it does put the entire thing into perspective.

Imasoulman · 18/05/2021 13:03

I was shocked at the inference that Trans people are mentally disabled, you know that is what I meant. You are simply twisting things to suit your narrative.

I am a 53 year old Trans woman so trying to call me out as transphobic is hilarious.

Yes there are many men who dress and present as women for many varied reasons, but they are not all transgender. You can split hairs and argue all day about labels but that's just distracting.

Just to be clear, I absolutely support safe single sex spaces, I would like to see more unisex spaces along side them but absolutely not instead of.
I am totally against trans women competing in women's sport.

Sorry if I don't fit your pre conceived ideas.

Rejoiningperson · 18/05/2021 13:03

Happy anti homophobia day!

Trans acceptance / rights and women’s safeguarding / rights can coexist together you know. And it’s not all about toilets. However trans rights cannot trump women’s rights. It’s really that simple.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/05/2021 13:03

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society.

As a victim of rape who suffered for years with PTSD, I find this comment gratuitously offensive.

Absolutely hear you, Mariel. Flowers

The misogyny needed to deny the reality of male sexual violence against women and girls is really quite something.

Imasoulman · 18/05/2021 13:05

Sorry my last comment should have had a quote attached, but if you have been following the thread you will get my drift

Carriemac · 18/05/2021 13:05

Sex based rights are there to protect women. Including the use of toilets. I'm genuinely sorry that gender beliefs cause individuals pain and mental suffering, but women always have and always will be at greater risks due to their sex. Gender beliefs should not get to trump these facts. Women need their spaces, free form any male or those born male with different gender beliefs. Sports, prisons, domestic abuse centres and toilets, all should be sex segregated, no ifs or buts

TangoWhiskyAlphaTango · 18/05/2021 13:05

@Nonmaquillee

The sheer breathtaking arrogance of that poster from the University of Bristol is just something else... "They know better than you" - oh, really???

What is actually GOING ON in universities these days?

DD is applying to Uni next year and was thinking about Bristol.......no way now after seeing that patronising bullshit. I wonder if this crap is being seen across all Unis?
ForeveronEtsy · 18/05/2021 13:06

Stop demanding this of me. I am not there to ensure your safety at the expense of my own.
Tired of this.

Fernlake · 18/05/2021 13:06

@Imasoulman

I was shocked at the inference that Trans people are mentally disabled, you know that is what I meant. You are simply twisting things to suit your narrative.

I am a 53 year old Trans woman so trying to call me out as transphobic is hilarious.

Yes there are many men who dress and present as women for many varied reasons, but they are not all transgender. You can split hairs and argue all day about labels but that's just distracting.

Just to be clear, I absolutely support safe single sex spaces, I would like to see more unisex spaces along side them but absolutely not instead of.
I am totally against trans women competing in women's sport.

Sorry if I don't fit your pre conceived ideas.

Take it up with Stonewall. They seem to be the mouthpiece for everything transgender. And according to them, yes, cross dressing absolutely comes under the umbrella.

And if Pip Bunce can win an award for women, when they present as a man three days a week, then individual opinions are irrelevant.

You may feel as though your experience is being appropriated by someone else, but it's not women who are doing it.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 18/05/2021 13:06

Trans acceptance / rights and women’s safeguarding / rights can coexist together you know.

TBF, women are not the ones saying they can't. That's the noise coming from the TRA lobby: the ones persistently attempting to erode our definitions, commandeer our spaces, trample over our boundaries and remove our sex-based rights.

Had they not done any of the above they could coexist fine and dandy. Women are not the problem here.

AdjustableAssholeSettings · 18/05/2021 13:08

International Day Against Homophobia is May 17th, OP.

BiBabbles · 18/05/2021 13:08

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

That's marked on the 17th of May, which was yesterday. Mine was very good, thanks.

I wonder what you will do for the other two parts since this has nothing on Homophobia or Biphobia.

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

The issue around toilets has nothing to do with 'understanding better', but people having different opinions on how to deal with the complex issues around toilets. It's not actually as simply as everyone needs to piss so let everyone in.

In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private?

Because they take up more space and there isn't the funding or enough support by those who have the power to change at this time for most places to bother. They also tend to require a bit more vigilance as single unit ones tend to be targeted more by those who damage toilets. The privacy seems to raise the risk of that, which is why the RADAR key system came into place for accessibility toilets.

The issue isn't only "individual and completely private", it's also where the toilets are placed. If the toilet is put in the most out of way place for "privacy", as is too common, it means if there is an issue that someone needs to "do something about", it's actually very difficult to get help to do something about it.

I've more than once thought in a public toilet that if I were attacked or collapsed or had any other emergency, I would be fucked, no signal and no real way of knowing when I might have been found. As someone who has actually dealt with someone trying to kill me, that is my concern in public toilets and why I generally avoid them.

Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are).

Some trans people are perverts - those aren't mutually exclusive groups. Also, some men pretend to be trans women and some of those are also perverts.

No matter how people identify, mixed sex spaces are riskier and have a higher rate of issues than single sex spaces. There are ways to mitigate that and even to make single sex ones safer, with different people having different opinions on the best route - they all have pros and cons - but it's by focusing on how to mitigate problems and getting actual support that it's important, not by telling people everyone pisses so it doesn't matter.

With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Gender diverse is already used to describe groups and individuals who do not identify as trans and/or who do not use the current Western model of gender that...let's say 'have an atypical gender presentation for their sex in the culture they're in' for lack of better wording. Depending on what you read, you may come across "trans and gender diverse people" or people talking specifically about gender diverse people around the world to discuss groups that don't use the trans/cis model of gender. It's not an identity, and it's not something anyone I know who uses it wants to become an identity - it's just a handy description.

It's actually really important to acknowledge that not every culture keeps to the trans/cis binary model, that there are other ways of viewing gender and sex roles and gender dysphoria, and not everyone even with gender dysphoria in Western societies identifies as trans (most dysphoric people don't go the medical route, focusing on that isn't helpful to many, it can be harmful).

Saying trans people exist "everywhere" is to colonise the entire world into your model. You might view all gender diverse people and/or all people with gender dysphoria as trans, I've definitely seen it before with people who think everyone should fit into that model, but that's the ideology talking, not actually looking at the 'diverse' reality of the many perspectives on these.

Neurodiverse is a controversial term within communities related to that term. That's kinda the thing - no model on this is going to be universal. Even with sexualities, we can discuss them on a population level based on the sexes, much like trans/cis can be useful to discuss things on a population level, but talking to individuals, there are always those that identify very differently to definitions the Ivory Tower puts on them.

To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty.

Again, you are universalizing something that isn't. In the UK, thankfully, the risks of a trans person being killed is far less than many other groups and it's pretty harmful to young people particularly to think they're at a high risk of being killed. While it is at times difficult to uphold our rights with the legal system as it is, trans people have the same basic rights and there isn't anyone in power really denying trans people exist.

That's the thing - yes, it's well known many on MN don't like trans women or anyone male in the women's loo -- but no one in power is really stopping that so why harp on about it? Is it really that important to try to get us to be happy about it? To get us all under the same ideals that it's just a toilet, ignoring the many other uses of that space for many women? To get us all under the same trans/cis perspective?

Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit)

I've heard this a bit in chronic illness circles - that people now have an idea what it's like to be us, I see it a bit better there as it's comparing not being able to leave the house and having to work around that & how isolating that often is & fatigue around medical concerns that can set in, but we can't universalize the emotional experience of the pandemic or of trans people or of being bed/housebound. I get the appeal of universalising it or even discussing it at a population level which will always have generalizations, but no, individuals have all experienced these differently so no, not 'all' of anyone has the experience of being trans, because trans people don't have the same expeience and neither have all people during the pandemic.

It isn't the body part between your legs that makes a person a danger to society.

Sex traits involve far more than the body part between your legs, and having dealt with many violent women all my life, including assault by penetration and an attempt on my life, I can still see that males are most likely to perpetuate violence and that mixed sex spaces are proven time and again to have more issues.

I don't see the point in ignoring that, I guess it's the easier option which leaves our public facilities worse for the lack of effort put into them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/05/2021 13:08

Yes there are many men who dress and present as women for many varied reasons, but they are not all transgender. You can split hairs and argue all day about labels but that's just distracting.

They fall under Stonewall's trans umbrella and they are explicitly included in policies. So yes they are, for all intents and purposes. So you have Phil/Pippa Bunce winning women's awards, Eddie Izzard looking to run on an All Women Shortlist but take male acting roles, and gender fluid police people having a warrant card for both gender identities.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/05/2021 13:09

Blink and you miss it!

justasking111 · 18/05/2021 13:10

Anyone have the percentage of sexual assaults in a mens prison versus a womens prison?