Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

www.ifnotnowmovement.org/
Jews Against the Occupation

'The US secretary of state has said he has not seen any Israeli evidence that Hamas was operating out of a tower block hit by an airstrike over the weekend, destroying media offices and apartments in the Gaza Strip building.'

Probably because there is none. The US asked as AP, who's media offices were in the building are a US company, but haven't been provided with any proof of any kind.

Not true - @joanneg36 - innocents are always victims as reported by The Nelson Mandela Foundation

I’m well aware that the ANC were branded terrorists but they were not terrorists - they explicitly avoided killing innocent civilians
Pretoria - Civilians suffered the most in military attacks by the African National Congress in its fight against Apartheid , the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said on Friday

In its final report released in Pretoria it notes the stated objective of Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), armed wing of the ANC, was not to target civilians or white people.

MK member Aboobaker Ismail underlined this when he said in his amnesty hearing: "While MK had the means to attack civilians ... it never did that sort of thing."

The TRC report says: "Despite these noble intentions, the majority of casualties of MK operations were civilians."

A total of 71 people died in such attacks between 1976 and 1984. Of these, 52 were civilians and 19 were security force members.

Among these civilians were people who the ANC apparently regarded as legitimate targets, says the TRC.'Deliberately targeted'

They included "collaborators" such as councillors, state witnesses at the trials of the ANC members, and suspected informers."In other words, they were 'deliberately targeted individuals', says the report

In attacks such as the detonation of car bombs outside buildings housing security forces, the casualties were predominantly civilian passers-by

There were also a number of blasts in public places such as restaurants. Cadres seeking amnesty for such attacks explained that wrong intelligence had led them to believe security force members frequented these places.

What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

Yep - the Anti-Arab sentiment continues unabated.

The non-Jewish population (almost entirely Arabs) was cleansed from the land. 88% population reduction and you are saying “get over it”.

As I’ve said repeatedly, the Holocaust was unspeakably awful and should never, ever be forgotten. But that does not justify treating another group, who indirectly helped defeat the Nazis by supporting the British against the Ottomans, with utter contempt. It’s does not justify stealing their homes, making them stateless, confirming them to refugee camps for the rest of their lives. For many a living hell.

And then having the audacity at claiming anti-semitism when anyone criticises Israel and its actions.

@StoneofDestiny

I suppose I am sanguine about this because I am the child of refugees. I know how commonplace that is. This romanticising of the position of the Palestinians as though they were the only refugees in the world and as though everyone else in the world still tilled the same fields their great-grandfather did always seems rather bizarre. I don't know anyone who still lives in the same place their ancestors did. My dh is English, his family were from Hulme. It all got knocked down in slum clearances! They got moved out. It happens. What makes the Palestinian situation so unique that they can't possibly accept it over 70 years later? Yes, they loved their homes. So did we all.

That's desperate. Slum clearance in Hume, Manchester led to people being given new homes and better living conditions! It was done on the authority of their own an Elected Government and carried out by their own elected Local Councils.

How you can even compare that to land grabbing from and eviction of Palestinian people beggars belief.

Well, his family ended up living somewhere else, and certainly not by choice, the community was destroyed.

There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.

The reason that hasn't happened isn't Israel's fault. Ask why Jordan and Lebanon still keep people in refugee camps after 70 years.

And if you don't like my dh as an example, take me. My family had to flee much further, and many other members of my family were murdered because there was no country anywhere in the world that would take them in. My family lost everything. And started again with nothing in a country where they didn't speak the language, had no home or friends. But they weren't bitter. They were glad to be alive and made the best of it.

If they could do it, I fail to see what makes Palestinians so unique that they can't.

You talk about a land grab as though everyone else in the world is living in the same place their ancestors did. This is just rubbish. Do you? If you do, you're really unusual. My family is scattered all over the world. We deal with it.

@anemona

I hear what you are saying, but can see double standards here because one of the main arguments I hear is that Jewish people are 'returning to where their ancestors came from'

My ancestors came from Haifa and yet I am told I can never ever live there- that I can live in another state should be there a 2 state solution, or to bugger off to another country altogether.

I found this thread on Twitter interesting and thought I would share- hope the link works

twitter.com/jeremyslevin/status/1393661393807843333

“There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.“

More disgusting, racist rhetoric from someone who thinks they can say what they like about Palestinians with no consequence. Where is your humanity?

I'd still like someone to explain why a one state binational solution cannot work. I really want it to.

There is none. There never is.

There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.

I'm really confused here. Maybe I misunderstood but this really does read as insensitive- basically saying " yeah we kicked you out, so what? deal with it, go be somebody else's problem"

This echoes language that was used in Europe when marginalising Jews. It's awful.

Why can't we just see we are two sides of the same coin here :(

[quote piddocktrumperiness]@Xenia
You know very well that what caused this was not Hamas firing first- take a step back and look at the chain of events; the evictions, the shooting at worshippers whilst praying- Hamas fired AFTER all that

The media obviously picked when Hamas fired as the starting point- that's dangerous misinformation

@anemona please do not lump all muslims as Hamas sympathisers, that's really unfair- Many, many people despise them. The vast majority do. Fact.
Many muslims are the real victims of islamic extremism and terrorism, remember that.[/quote]
If I gave that impression, I'm sorry. I thought I had made it clear that I see Palestinians as victims of Hamas. I certainly don't think all Muslins support Hamas, far from it.

@piddocktrumperiness I am so sorry you have to read shit like this and fight so hard to be heard, it’s all so desperately sad and unjust

@piddocktrumperiness

I'd still like someone to explain why a one state binational solution cannot work. I really want it to.

It works in a sense because about 15 percent of the current Israeli population are Israeli Arabs. Arabic is in fact an official language in Israel. It is not all rosy but moving in a better direction, slowly, I think, in terms of equality for Israeli Arabs. Palestinian population outside of Israel spent the last three generations educated essentially to hate the Jewish state and the Jews. So clearly it won’t work to live alongside them...

@StoneofDestiny Apologies, I should have chosen my words more carefully. What I meant was: the ANC did not, as their core strategy, deliberately set out to murder innocent civilians. As the information you have quoted above shows, they sometimes got killed anyway. This is still a marked difference from sending suicide bombers on to buses packed full of civilians or randomly firing rockets into Tel Aviv.

'With neither side apparently capable of outright victory, the conflict seems locked in an endless loop of bloodshed. So the focus on civilian casualties has become more intense than ever as a proxy for the moral high ground in a seemingly unwinnable war.'

unwinnable, what would 'victory' even look like for each side?

@anemona

I certainly don't think all Muslins support Hamas, far from it

Except you did say exactly that at 15:54 and that disgusting comment has been deleted.

So what are Palestinians supposed to do? Accept their fate?

I'd love to know what posters genuinely think Palestinians should do to advance their cause? And not "well what they shouldn't do is use their children as human shields" but what they should do to achieve their goal of getting their lands back. Which let's face it, isn't an unreasonable goal?

What other non-violent routes are actually available to them?

@piddocktrumperiness - what you suggest sounds like a lovely ideal, but the reason Israeli Jews might not feel great about it is because they were driven out of every previous country where they tried to make a home by pogroms and finally a genocide. And that’s exactly what would happen to them tomorrow in the Middle East if the government ‘stepped back’ as the posters on this thread, sleeping safe in their English beds, are suggesting they do. Hope that helps.

@piddocktrumperiness

There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.

I'm really confused here. Maybe I misunderstood but this really does read as insensitive- basically saying " yeah we kicked you out, so what? deal with it, go be somebody else's problem"

This echoes language that was used in Europe when marginalising Jews. It's awful.

Why can't we just see we are two sides of the same coin here :(

I think we all agree that it is exactly the same situation for the Palestinian refugees as it was for the Jews. Jews generally concentrated on rebuilding their lives after being expelled from their homes during the war. Some Palestinians did the same. In West Bank, in Jordan, in the US there are Palestinians who are now prospering. It’s fair the Gazans will be allowed to do the same instead of serving as hostages of the fight to punish Israel...

@Lessthanaballpark That is a fair question - what should the Palestinians do? I don’t know the answer, but it has to start with peace, recognising Israel’s right to exist and then petitioning through protest not involving the murder of civilians for their own state alongside that. That is what they did do very briefly in the 1990s and the two-state solution was in sight at that point.

@piddocktrumperiness

There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.

I'm really confused here. Maybe I misunderstood but this really does read as insensitive- basically saying " yeah we kicked you out, so what? deal with it, go be somebody else's problem"

This echoes language that was used in Europe when marginalising Jews. It's awful.

Why can't we just see we are two sides of the same coin here :(

@piddocktrumperiness - presumably you know that nearly all Jews who live in Israel fall into one of 3 categories.

1. They are descendants of Jews who lived in Israel for centuries.
2. They are descendants of Jews whose families lived for centuries in other countries after leaving Israel and were then refugees after being ethnically cleansed from those countries - about 60% from the Middle East & N Africa.
3. They are recent immigrants from Western countries eg the US (a tiny number)

I don't hear you say 'What about the rights of those Jewish refugees?' Or indeed, what about the rights of those German refugees or those Hindu refugees forced to leave Pakistan at partition.

If you're only going to care - and care deeply, go on massive protests etc - about ONE group of refugees, as a refugee myself, I want to know why.

In effect, you are saying to the approx 1 million Jewish refugees thrown out of ME and N African countries 'Yeah, we kicked you out, so what? Deal with it, go be someone else's problem'.

But just not here. But you don't say where. You have chosen a side but refuse to acknowledge it and pretend you are neutral. You are not neutral.

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

I certainly don't think all Muslins support Hamas, far from it

Except you did say exactly that at 15:54 and that disgusting comment has been deleted.[/quote]
No I didn't.

How convenient for you it's been deleted.

I don't think that so can't think why I would say it!

@BFrazzled
Jews ‘concentrated on rebuilding their lives’ as you say by being given Palestinian land. They were no longer refugees because they took someone else’s land and home.

Israel has continued to do this since 1948 and 1967 and continues to build ILLEGAL settlements on agreed upon Palestinian land and homes

Where exactly do you want the Gazans to go? As if the US is going to open its arms and welcome them in.
You are basically saying they should agree to be wiped out.
Sorry but your dismissive attitude is disgusting.
If someone walked into your house right now and threw you out would you just throw your hands in the air and say ‘oh well fairs fair, I guess I’ll just get on a plane and go live somewhere else then. Bye home’

@JustFedUpOfThis

“There is no reason why those residents of Mandatory Palestine couldn't have moved a lot less far than my dh's family did, and set up home afresh in eg Gaza or Jordan.“

More disgusting, racist rhetoric from someone who thinks they can say what they like about Palestinians with no consequence. Where is your humanity?

When you care as much about MY family being refugees as you care about Palestinians' families being refugees, then I will be interested in your views on this.

I think you have answered your own question. You don't see me or most other refugees as fully human so don't care that our families were also refugees.

That is the problem. You are angry that I don't value Palestinians above all other refugees. Well, I don't. I value them equally, no more, no less.