Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

Only people (repeatedly) claiming or making accusations that some posters are trying to shut down debate are all of the same mind - that Israel is the side completely at fault here

[quote JustFedUpOfThis]@anemona

Have you verified my figures yet, sourced from a Jewish website?

That’s quite a reduction in the number of non-Jews in Palestine/Israel in 1948. A catastrophe even.

As referenced before, data cut and paste from Jewish Virtual Library
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present[/quote]
There was a war on, initiated by the side you support. They lost. That's why the figures went down.

Did you miss that? 1948 was quite an important year in Israel's history.

@Menoismymate

Death toll now at least 58 children in Gaza.

CNN 'Two Israeli airstrikes in Gaza killed at least 43 Palestinians including eight children and injured 50 others, most of whom were women and children early Sunday, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. With the latest casualties, the death toll in Gaza has climbed to a total of 197, including at least 58 children and 34 women, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. Since the beginning of the Israeli airstrikes on Gaza this week, at least 1,235 Palestinians have been injured, with the number expected to rise, the health ministry said, as paramedics continue to carry out search operations. Ten Israelis have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza, according to the IDF.'

According to the Israeli side, I think the figures were for around 1500 injured on the Israeli side.

Also an unknown number of Palestinian deaths, including of children, are sadly caused by Hamas rockets misfiring and falling on their own side. Estimates are for around 1/4 to 1/3 of rockets misfiring.

Just wanted to say that most of the Jewish population who were exiled many moons ago were Sephardic or Mizrahi- native to the region.
Ashkenazi Jews came from Europe and were not native to the region so the claim of centuries of ownership of the land is suspect by those who descendent from Europe. They have escaped persecution and abhorrent any semitism and yes Israel is their home. I accept that, and will live happily side by side, only as equals, but the native Jews were not Ashkenazi who seem to make up the bulk of the population of Israeli Jews. There is racism in Israel, intra Jewish discrimination, where Sephardic Jews and Mizrahi Jews are treated less than by Ashkenazi even though arguably, the Mizrahi and Sephardic have closed ties to the region.
I’m happy to be corrected.

My post is in response to a poster up thread talking about how Palestinians have no history or claim to the region whereas all Jewish people do. I can trace my lineage back 7 generations atleast to the region, as a Palestinian.

Only people (repeatedly) claiming or making accusations that some posters are trying to shut down debate are all of the same mind - that Israel is the side completely at fault here

Yes, because the debate is, why there is no one holding Israel accountable for human rights violations and international law violations which have been documented by international organisations..

We are on the side of international law, and human rights organisations.

So yes, israel is at fault. As has been confirmed by these organisations.

The debate on whose side of the conflict we support in the wider historical perspective is a seperate issue.

When we are talking about the urgent issue right now, the deaths of children and innocent civilians.

Yes, Israel is at fault, and to try to excuse its behaviour is inhumane, and racist.

Hope that helps

But yes, all deaths and injuries, on both sides, whoever is responsible, are individual tragedies.

I hope both sets of leaders can agree to stop this soon.

I have literally zero desire to shut down a debate about Israel/Palestine, as you will see if you read what I've said in my many posts above.

And I agree that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic... unless it is.

The starting point for a non-anti-Semitic good-faith conversation about Israel/Palestine begins by acknowledging that both have a right to a state. If you acknowledge that as true, you need to next say whether you believe a state has a right to defend its civilians from attack.

I gave up late yesterday asking what people believed a proportionate response from Israel would look like. Everyone either didn't answer or said 'step back and do nothing'.

De facto, that is saying that the Jewish state should step back and allow its own destruction.

And that, unfortunately, is anti-Semitic.

So I'm really not trying to shut down debate, I've wasted a good part of the last two days having this debate, trying to get people to engage in good faith.

@Ikeasucks

Only people (repeatedly) claiming or making accusations that some posters are trying to shut down debate are all of the same mind - that Israel is the side completely at fault here

Are you just referring to the airstrikes here? Or are you saying that the Palestinians are equally to blame for their own human rights abuses?

Please keep in mind that this thread is to discuss the oppression of Palestinian people - nothing that has happened historically or in recent times can ever excuse or justify what is happening as we speak and what has been happening for decades.

According to the Israeli side, I think the figures were for around 1500 injured on the Israeli side.

Also an unknown number of Palestinian deaths, including of children, are sadly caused by Hamas rockets misfiring and falling on their own side. Estimates are for around 1/4 to 1/3 of rockets misfiring.

Hang on, so the Israeli defence system stops 90% of Hamas rockets, and of the other 10%, 1/3 or 1/4 misfire and fall on the Palestinian side, yet there are still more injuries on the Israeli side? Have I got that right?

There is no way those of us on either side will reconcile the points between us. I know Israel is a strong successful democracy, the one Jewish state on the planet (there are many muslim ones) and it deserves our support. Other take another view. If I had to choose whether to live in Iran, Saudi or Israel I know where I would prefer to live and which is the better country, morally and on just about all counts.

@Xenia

There is no way those of us on either side will reconcile the points between us. I know Israel is a strong successful democracy, the one Jewish state on the planet (there are many muslim ones) and it deserves our support. Other take another view. If I had to choose whether to live in Iran, Saudi or Israel I know where I would prefer to live and which is the better country, morally and on just about all counts.

Have you been living under a rock?

More 'solidarity' for HAMAS, from the bro's in England. This time in Birmingham, innit

The Point News (@TPNewsSite) Tweeted: Muslim who voiced support for Israel has his house broken into and smashed up in Birmingham by pro-Palestine radicals. t.co/EMdDsXXu3A twitter.com/TPNewsSite/status/1394250674372812806?s=20

“Yes, Israel is at fault, and to try to excuse its behaviour is inhumane, and racist.“

Hamas fired 1000s of rockets at Israel knowing they would retaliate, probably killing civilians . Why is no one holding Hamas to account

Please keep in mind that this thread is to discuss the oppression of Palestinian people - nothing that has happened historically or in recent times can ever excuse or justify what is happening as we speak and what has been happening for decades.

Just noticed that someone changed the thread title - the original was how Mumsnet doesn’t allow discussion on this topic - or similar

There is no way those of us on either side will reconcile the points between us. I know Israel is a strong successful democracy, the one Jewish state on the planet (there are many muslim ones) and it deserves our support. Other take another view. If I had to choose whether to live in Iran, Saudi or Israel I know where I would prefer to live and which is the better country, morally and on just about all counts.

Please elaborate on the superior morality of Israel, I’m intrigued.

@Flaxmeadow is there any point to linking to unauthenticated 'reports' from dodgy 'news' websites? In this case a right wing one with all the journalistic integrity of a stoat?

If we went down that path on this thread we'd all be here all day watching endless videos of alleged whatevers from all over the world. Not sure it actually adds anything to the conversation.

Ikeasucks
Just noticed that someone changed the thread title - the original was how Mumsnet doesn’t allow discussion on this topic - or similar

Because this is a different thread?

I think many in the UK would choose to live in and bring up their children in Israel rather than Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Saudi etc - if they’re being honest. Even the ones who call Israel a fascist, genocidal, apartheid state

Hamas reacted to the incident at the Mosque.
Hamas should fuck off tbh because I’m tired of all this PR I have to do on behalf of all normal Palestinians who have to repeatedly say WE ARE NOT HAMAS. We didn’t vote them in since not all Palestinians are in Gaza

But facts are facts- you shoot at worshippers when they’re praying, outside a holy sight AND during Ramadan? and expect a nuts paramilitary to do nothing is a bit naive. Did we really think they’d do nothing at all? Genuinely asking.

I want all this to end.
I want to go home to Haifa. I want to live there and would choose it over any other Muslim country because frankly, and speaking as an Arab; we are shit at lots of things. The Israelis do many things better than many Arabs and I believe a one state binational solution would be the envy of the Middle East and can finally screw the gulf where it hurts. Bonus points.

What I don’t want is an apartheid state; a racist and discriminatory one. I want peace and rights- equal rights. I have the right to live in Haifa and just because there are other Muslim countries doesn’t mean I, as a Palestinian Muslim, can’t live still live in Haifa. My ancestors came from there.

It was a follow on thread.

Menoismymate

This is a UK site and pro HAMAS violence and intimidation is happening in English citys. Rape threats, threats to life, smashing up homes, forcing people out of neighbourhoods

It's got a different name cos it's a different thread.
On another note, Lebanon is lovely, as are the people. But I wouldn't choose to go live anywhere with ongoing unrest.

Palestinians are treated like trash in all other Arab countries, let’s be honest and the biggest culprits? The racist gulf.
No one really wants us, no one really likes us Palestinians and we are often considered as trouble makers wherever we go.
The other arab nations often pay lip service so I wouldn’t trust them with anything.

But you cannot deny my right to exist amongst Israelis, in peace, and to have opportunities in the land my ancestors came from and help build, and I hope one day I can go home

@Flaxmeadow I know the site. Like I said, linking to 'alleged' whatevers off dodgy sites doesn't add credibility to any argument.

I would have thought ' smashing up homes, forcing people out of neighbourhoods' in the UK would have made the actual news though- I must have missed that.
I know they arrested the 4 scumbags who were driving around shutting out anti-semitic drivel via a megaphone, in London. And they're being charged.

We have hate crime laws in the UK luckily, as well as the right to protest. So anyone, on either side of the argument, who is racist or behaves threateningly towards the muslim or jewish communities, can and will be arrested and charged accordingly.