To really want to know where I went wrong with breastfeeding?

[sunglassesintherain]

I don’t know if anyone might be able to help me process and understand where I went wrong.

My baby was born at just over 40 weeks after a failed induction and emergency section. I lost consciousness after the operation and so I didn’t get skin to skin with him. OH gave him a bottle of formula milk.

He slept pretty much constantly for twelve hours and when I tried to breastfeed him he just kept losing his latch and getting increasingly frustrated. We persevered for the three days we were in hospital but when he was weighed when we went home he’d lost 12% of his birth weight. We were put on a feeding plan with formula expressed breast milk and trying to feed from the breast.

I saw an independent lactation consultant and he had a tongue tie snipped (she did say it was only a tiny one so not sure it would have made all that much difference) and had community midwives come out but no one would really help.

I expressed for him for nearly three months but I am just trying to work out where I went wrong. Was it not getting skin to skin when he was born?

@GhibliKhan we have no idea how the baby experiences those first few days. You are projecting. It’s probably not the greatest experience being squeezed through the birth canal either but we don’t recommend universal c sections. No one is saying there isn’t a place for formula where it’s needed, but universally giving formula in the first few days in order to avoid any infant weight loss (if that’s what you are advocating) is not necessary and for some babies would risk disrupting the breastfeeding start to their overall detriment. It also would make no difference to those babies who have excess weight due to fluids etc, a scenario you seem to ignore.

In any case this thread isn’t actually about the merits of formula vs breastmilk so let’s not turn it into another tedious debate.

P. S. And further to your comment 'while waiting for an adequate milk supply to develop'... Utter nonsense. The colostrum/milk supply is not only adequate, it is perfect for the babies' needs. I think many people don't understand quite what colostrum actually is.

With my first, I lost a lot of blood during birth so had to mix feed as my fluids were too low to produce milk and he was losing weight. Then with my second, I thought I'd give it a really good go and the baby got jaundice so had to mix feed again from when she was just 4 days old. I felt like such a failure that my boobs were useless. Even when I tried to express, I couldn't manage much, I did sometimes feel like my body was just crap and it's annoying but I can't dwell on these things, fed is best, if I was to have another, I probably wouldn't bother with breastfeeding as I just can't seem to do it. Both my kids are healthy and happy.

You've done amazingly well to express for so long. Don't be hard on yourself.

@ShaunOfTheWellRead

Thanks *@ChangePart1*

I think that part of the problem is that a lot of people cannot conceive that breastfeeding has its own negatives.
People know that 'It can be days until the milk comes in (true), but a baby has reserves to be able to survive that (true), which is why its perfectly normal for the baby to lose weight (true)'.

However, it's like it's almost blasphemous to acknowledge what that experience is like for the baby (i.e. a form of fasting) - and so tell me I'm giving misinformation to say that the baby is almost certainly very hungry during the period where it has to plough into its built-in energy stores to survive whilst it waits for an adequate milk supply to develop....

I wish for a world where women are given frank information the plusses and minuses of all feeding options, then left to make their own decisions without judgement. No doubt women like the OP would still feel disappointment if they weren't able to fulfil their choice in the way they desired, but less likely to feel they've 'gone wrong', when in fact they have a perfectly well fed and happy baby.

I'm far more likely to win the lottery, though...

Absolutely! It's really shocking that women aren't told the downsides of breastfeeding. It means when people run into problems they are blindsided. I also find it quite patronising that we're fed nonstop info about how breastfeeding is wonderful and the 'best' yet not told anything about the downsides to it, nor about the upsides and downsides of formula. We really deserve better infant feeding education across the board.

I have had people challenge me when I talk about how not all newborns can tolerate the period before mature milk comes in, some can cope fine on the amount of colostrum available but certainly not all can. And there's nothing wrong with early supplementing before mature milk comes in either (in fact some evidence suggests in low weight infants early supplementing is actually correlated with an increased chance of breastfeeding months down the line).

There's a widely held myth that suckling is what brings a mother's milk in when in fact it's the placenta detaching which triggers the hormones that lead to milk production. So offering a hungry baby formula before mature milk comes in (which can take days, even longer with delayed lactogenesis) really isn't going to impinge upon breastfeeding as long as you're also offering the breast to work on latching. Another myth is that colostrum is this magical, wonderfully calorific liquid perfectly designed to meet baby's needs. It's actually less calorific than mature milk and there are plenty of babies who clinically aren't safely able to cope on the colostrum available to them before the onsent of mature milk.

Unfortunately my experience is that 90% of breastfeeding 'advice' including that from midwives and health visitors is based on myth and misinformation, even our NHS feeding class spoke about how breastfeeding increases IQ and reduces the risk of obesity (it really, really doesn't). New parents deserve a lot better, to be given evidence based information about infant feeding methods and given support. But yes, a lottery win is more likely!

My pals baby didn't stop screaming for days, and only did stop when she started supplementing with formula.
I'm no genius, but I don't think I'm projecting to say that he didn't enjoy the screaming phase very much.

If you read the earlier post, the screaming is NORMAL and NECESSARY - it produces a physiological response in the mothers brain to make more milk and increase milk production on a long term basis. My baby who lost no weight after birth still did it, even though I was squirting her in the face with my milk as I had so much of it. They do it on and off for 6+ weeks, and most of the time in the first 2 weeks. By giving formula is disrupts the babies natural action and increases the risk of mum not producing sufficient milk, trapping them in the cycle of formula top ups.

@GhibliKhan

Having said that, I do believe there are things we can do to promote a more supportive and empowering approach to infant feeding. DH works in the medical field and often has new parents and babies for patients. He is passionately fed is best and clued up on the evidence behind the benefits of breast/formula feeding. One small thing he does to try avoid contributing to the stigma and shame of formula feeding is ask people 'so, how is baby feeding?' instead of assuming breastfeeding as we found many midwives did: 'are you breastfeeding/how's breastfeeding going' etc. even if they didn't know either way.

It means parents don't feel the need to say 'no, I'm not' and avoids a potentially triggering or upsetting situation if talking to someone who had wanted to breastfeed but was unable to. I'm proud of him. He's the first to say to somebody who's struggling that whichever way they feed their baby, they will thrive, and that they're doing a great job.

There's a widely held myth that suckling is what brings a mother's milk in when in fact it's the placenta detaching which triggers the hormones that lead to milk production.

Again, you are wrong. Yes, placenta detaching triggers the initial milk production, but suckling is what KEEPS you producing milk and ensures that you make sufficient milk to keep up with growing demands of a rapidly growing infant. Suckling has been shown to cause people (men and women) who have never been pregnant to produce milk.

If people don't want to breast feed that should be accepted and support to properly formula feed given, but the amount of misinformation on what is normal, appropriate and desirable in a breastfed infant needs to be given first.

@SoUmmYeah

*My pals baby didn't stop screaming for days, and only did stop when she started supplementing with formula. I'm no genius, but I don't think I'm projecting to say that he didn't enjoy the screaming phase very much.*

If you read the earlier post, the screaming is NORMAL and NECESSARY - it produces a physiological response in the mothers brain to make more milk and increase milk production on a long term basis. My baby who lost no weight after birth still did it, even though I was squirting her in the face with my milk as I had so much of it. They do it on and off for 6+ weeks, and most of the time in the first 2 weeks. By giving formula is disrupts the babies natural action and increases the risk of mum not producing sufficient milk, trapping them in the cycle of formula top ups.

You don't have any way of knowing whether @GhibliKhan was producing enough milk for her baby or whether they were losing dangerous amounts of weight to be fair so this comes across a little insensitive. Yes, newborns cry and scream at times. But if you've ever been around a newborn that is starving it's very different. They're often restless and jumpy, inconsolable, can't be put down, unsatisfied after a feed. Until it goes far enough that they become listless and unable to nurse effectively and things become very serious.

That's great you had such a wonderful supply. Let's bear in mind that not everyone is physically able to produce enough milk for their baby. Estimates range from 1-5% of women, to 12-15%. Unfortunately many mothers have found that when that happens to them staff are unable or unwilling to believe them and response appropriately. Others still outright refuse to believe it's possible not to produce enough milk despite the lived experiences of people who've been through that.

Sorry haven’t rtft.

I couldn’t read this and not comment:
I remember once he threw up after feeding him breast milk and feeling briefly as if I hated him. That’s horrible.

I think most mothers have these feelings at these desperate moments- I certainly did. It’s an intense and difficult time. Those feelings are entirely natural.

I think you should have been properly supported to breastfeed and that’s what went ‘wrong.’ I think skin to skin, latched on within an hour of csection, and regular latching on or attempts to for 12 hours would have possibly helped- so could be useful info for next time. If you do have another, you could read la leche league’s book and call their helpline whenever you have concerns/challenges/problems- and I think most babies have challenges when breastfeeding. I had different issues with all 4 of mine.

I must repeat pp to say that expressing for 3 months is INCREDIBLE!!

@SoUmmYeah

There's a widely held myth that suckling is what brings a mother's milk in when in fact it's the placenta detaching which triggers the hormones that lead to milk production.

Again, you are wrong. Yes, placenta detaching triggers the initial milk production, but suckling is what KEEPS you producing milk and ensures that you make sufficient milk to keep up with growing demands of a rapidly growing infant. Suckling has been shown to cause people (men and women) who have never been pregnant to produce milk.

Yes, I'm aware that nursing is what keeps the supply going. I'm talking about stimulating the onset of mature milk, your milk 'coming in'. Why do you think mothers who don't breastfeed at all still have a supply come in and need to manage that?

My point is that it's absolutely appropriate to give a newborn formula if they aren't coping well in the period between birth and the onset of mature milk with the amounts of colostrum available, sometimes it's clinically necessary. And mothers need to be given factual information and not scared away from doing that because it might affect their supply. It won't.

Anyway, this is a big derail (as usual for any threads related to breastfeeding), OP if you're still reading then I hope things are going okay with you and your baby

@ShitOnIt00

You didn’t go wrong at all, it just doesn’t work out in lots of situations, . I really doubt it was the lack of skin to skin because this would be a factor in lots of cases and I don’t think it is. My sister’s babies all struggled to latch on- who knows why. Expressing for 3 months is absolutely AMAZING... you’ve effectively doubled your workload! So well done to you. X

I so wish you had been around when I had my firstborn! DS1 was born after an emergency cs and really struggled to latch on. Over the course of the 5 days I had to stay in hospital, the midwives were absolutely amazing spending time with me trying to help him latch but as he was becoming jaundiced they insisted (rightly) that he needed a bottle. I spent the next 3 months trying to get him to latch every feed before giving him a bottle and then spending as much time trying to express when he was asleep and I probably should have been trying to rest too. At 3 months I finally gave up but whilst out shopping in John Lewis I needed to feed him. At the time there was a separate area for bottle feeding babies from the area for breastfeeding mothers. As I sat there feeding him, two women walked past me to the other area and whilst feeding their babies had a very condescending conversation about how they couldn't understand how anyone could give their baby a bottle. I was sat the other side of the divider in tears and went home and tried for the next month or so to express again before realising the futility of this, and that he was thriving with formula anyway. He did later have some minor speech problems (that were fairly easily resolved), so it could have been tongue tie. He's now 22, tall, slim & handsome (my opinion! 😁) and doing a post-grad law degree and could talk for Britain! DS2 on the other hand, had absolutely no problems latching and breastfeeding him was an absolute doddle. apart from having a 2 year old trying to climb over me at the same time! 🤣

Op, please don't beat yourself up; it's not necessarily something you did or didn't do. Some babies just can't latch for some reason and will still be absolutely fine being bottle fed. Please just enjoy all the baby cuddles! 🤗

Neither of my kids were breast fed - adopted by us as toddlers. They are both perfectly healthy, bright, loving and gorgeous.

I really think formula should be seen for what it actually is - an absolutely life saving intervention that is able to provide most of the same benefits as breast milk. We are all doing our best, it sounds an exhausting birth that you did brilliantly in - and I m sure you have had plenty of skin to skin contact since.

There are breast feeding advocates,like milktivity, who see breast milk as something magical. It sits in the category of epigenetics as mad shit narcissistic mothers think to me. This is such a small portion of your child's life and you are giving them all the love, stimulation and nourishment they need.

They are amazing and you are amazing.

@Tooshytoshine

Neither of my kids were breast fed - adopted by us as toddlers. They are both perfectly healthy, bright, loving and gorgeous.

I really think formula should be seen for what it actually is - an absolutely life saving intervention that is able to provide most of the same benefits as breast milk. We are all doing our best, it sounds an exhausting birth that you did brilliantly in - and I m sure you have had plenty of skin to skin contact since.

There are breast feeding advocates,like milktivity, who see breast milk as something magical. It sits in the category of epigenetics as mad shit narcissistic mothers think to me. This is such a small portion of your child's life and you are giving them all the love, stimulation and nourishment they need.

They are amazing and you are amazing.

This.

I loved breastfeeding so much (after a really rough start anyway), and wished I could have done it forever. But the woo stuff about how breastmilk is this magical mystical fluid (one midwife called colostrum 'liquid gold' lol) is really patronising and infantilising to women. Ultimately it's just food.

We are incredibly lucky to live in a time and place where we have access to a safe and nutritious food like formula, not only because it gives us options and the ability so share care of our babies more equally, but because it literally saves lives for so many. I can't imagine the trauma in years gone by or in other parts of the world of being unable to effectively or safely breastfeed your baby but having no other option.

It could be so many things. Positioning and attachment. Jaundice. Baby just never got the hang of it.

Midwives mostly aren't trained in breastfeeding support.

There's a woeful lack of community support available in most areas.

Regardless of what goes wrong, none of it is your fault.

You haven't received adequate or timely support until you've paid for it and that's wrong.

You didn't do anything wrong. It wasn't your fault. Babies are just like that, and always have been. There was never a magical time when every baby naturally fed without any problems. We're lucky to live in a time when there's formula rather than trying to feed them bread soaked in milk or something!

With DC1 I had a difficult birth, struggled to latch, weight loss, horrific feeding plan, etc. In the end breastfeeding worked out but I'm not sure it was worth all the distress and heartache.

DC2 came out and just latched on as if he was born to it. It's just the luck of the draw. Maybe there's a mismatch between mouth shape and nipple shape sometimes, who knows?

There's a good bit in the Emily Oster book Cribsheet about breastfeeding and the evidence of whether it's better than formula feeding. The conclusion is that it is better but only by a tiny bit. And your baby had that benefit from expressed milk anyway.

@GhibliKhan. And yet you are deliberately misunderstanding information that you yourself are posting. Babies are born with all the reserves they need to thrive while their stomachs are too tiny for anything more than minute amounts of colostrum at at time. Their stomachs cannot usually cope with more than this. The amounts produced and that they receive are perfect for them. They feed little and often. They are not starving or fasting. They receive exactly what they need until the volumes of fatty milk are large enough for them to take in the calories they need to gain weight very quickly.

To suggest they need formula in the first few days in order to avoid weight loss is unbelievable.

@GhibliKhan. But I am not challenging the other poster you mentioned, I am just responding to your comments. I don't disagree with large parts of posts you have made, which are fair and reasonable. But I am definitely challenging the notion that babies are fasting or starving in the first few days following birth (discounting feeding or supply problems of course).

@GhibliKhan

discounting feeding or supply problems of course

If you discount feeding or supply problems then there's not a problem with feeding or supply.

Well, quite! I apologise if I've misunderstood your posts, but there are a few sentences here and there where I struggle to see how they've been misinterpreted. By other posters too.