To really want to know where I went wrong with breastfeeding?

[sunglassesintherain]

I don’t know if anyone might be able to help me process and understand where I went wrong.

My baby was born at just over 40 weeks after a failed induction and emergency section. I lost consciousness after the operation and so I didn’t get skin to skin with him. OH gave him a bottle of formula milk.

He slept pretty much constantly for twelve hours and when I tried to breastfeed him he just kept losing his latch and getting increasingly frustrated. We persevered for the three days we were in hospital but when he was weighed when we went home he’d lost 12% of his birth weight. We were put on a feeding plan with formula expressed breast milk and trying to feed from the breast.

I saw an independent lactation consultant and he had a tongue tie snipped (she did say it was only a tiny one so not sure it would have made all that much difference) and had community midwives come out but no one would really help.

I expressed for him for nearly three months but I am just trying to work out where I went wrong. Was it not getting skin to skin when he was born?

If it was completely unconnected to food then breastfed babies wouldn't lose more than formula fed, would they?

They don't always. My first lost 9% but was an artificially inflated birth weight due to being pumped full of fluids. Baby 2 lost 0.1%, so little the midwife didn't record it as it could be down to different scales.

If it was completely unconnected to food then breastfed babies wouldn't lose more than formula fed, would they?

So you are saying everyone should ff to minimise weight loss in newborns?

Newborns lose weight by design. They aren’t supposed to feed for weight gain in the first few days, feeding is for the colostrum- for antibodies etc. Otherwise women would have evolved with their milk coming in as the baby is born, not a few days later while they get colostrum.

How do you know that giving formula to “correct” that weight loss isn’t harmful long term? That preventing babies from getting colostrum and also not stimulating breastmilk isn’t more harmful than the weight loss?

@GhibliKhan there’s a difference between losing weight and “going hungry” though, as pps have pointed out. It’s ridiculous to compare normal post birth weight loss with birth injuries or invoke cavemen as some sort of comparator.

@sunglassesintherain

I don’t know if anyone might be able to help me process and understand where I went wrong.

My baby was born at just over 40 weeks after a failed induction and emergency section. I lost consciousness after the operation and so I didn’t get skin to skin with him. OH gave him a bottle of formula milk.

He slept pretty much constantly for twelve hours and when I tried to breastfeed him he just kept losing his latch and getting increasingly frustrated. We persevered for the three days we were in hospital but when he was weighed when we went home he’d lost 12% of his birth weight. We were put on a feeding plan with formula expressed breast milk and trying to feed from the breast.

I saw an independent lactation consultant and he had a tongue tie snipped (she did say it was only a tiny one so not sure it would have made all that much difference) and had community midwives come out but no one would really help.

I expressed for him for nearly three months but I am just trying to work out where I went wrong. Was it not getting skin to skin when he was born?

I was in this exact situation (severe tongue tie, weight loss, severe blood loss due to a pph that resulted in a bit of a delay with my milk coming in) and kept exclusively breastfeeding only because I had good support. I met an nct breastfeeding counsellor who knew all the best positions to latch a tongue tied baby, I had a supportive HV who wanted me to bf because she was convinced it helped with my PNA, and spent hundreds getting top tier support from a lactation consultant. But it still took a lot of blood sweat and tears literally.

So I don’t think you did anything wrong. I just think you probably weren’t supported enough. Just focus on the present now.

@GhibliKhan

So you are saying everyone should ff to minimise weight loss in newborns?

No, I'm saying what I said in my first post:
Feeding that baby whether by bottle or breast, formula or expressed is a very good idea, and not ever something anyone should feel regretful about, no matter how it's done.

Newborns lose weight by design. They aren’t supposed to feed for weight gain in the first few days, feeding is for the colostrum- for antibodies etc. Otherwise women would have evolved with their milk coming in as the baby is born, not a few days later while they get colostrum.

Evolution is a by-product of natural selection, not a design process. It's likely that babies who got colostrum followed by milk back in caveperson days would have an increased chance of survival.
Doesn't mean we have to let them go hungry now that we don't live in caves and we have methods of sanitation.

How do you know that giving formula to “correct” that weight loss isn’t harmful long term? That preventing babies from getting colostrum and also not stimulating breastmilk isn’t more harmful than the weight loss?

I know this because formula feeding isn't harmful.

Need to point out that cavemen had high protein, low carb diets and so babies would have been much smaller and so the likliehood of birth injuries and the risk of ‘not enough milk’ would have been smaller too. Plus babies had much smaller heads. It was only as humans got into agriculture, eating carbs, and babies got heavier and developed big heads that women developed substantial risks in childbirth. But by then we were living in societies so any suitable woman could nurse a baby.

With my ds1, I had a rough labour, he was born early and was poorly. I had zero confidence to persevere with bf. A midwife suggested expressing. This made me instantly cling to seeing how much milk he was having. I did it for 6 months. As you said, it's hell! With ds2, I had a good labour, he was born healthy and i managed to bf. I think these factors gave me cofidence

I agree that it was lack of support rather than anything you did wrong! You did really well to express, I could barely get any output.

My DC3 lost about 12% birthweight but I was really lucky that I had a midwife who was prepared to watch and wait rather than push formula because DC was alert and plenty of dirty/wet nappies. I imagine if this had been my first baby I would of been pushed to formula (which I absolutely am not against but it wasn't what I wanted).

I couldn't breastfeed my first, barely manaaged to express anything - almost as if I had no milk supply. Never had swollen boobs or leakage etc.
Second breastfed without much problem. Births were fairly similar.
The only difference I can think of was a midwife in the postnatal ward after my second. I mentioned that I was struggling to feed and she pretty much manhandled my breasts and baby's head into a better position. First time around, people were much less "hands on" with their advice.
But would that really have made much difference? I don't know.
I do know that expressing is tedious and I could not have done it for months so there is no failure.
I also know that formula feeding is also not a failure. It's weird how so many aspects of birth and child rearing are treated like failures, but other parts of life and health are accepted without feeling blame or guilt.

You didn't go wrong OP, you did all the right things, it just didn't work out the way you wanted it to. You have a well fed baby that's all that matters.

Go easy on yourself OP. You're obviously a great Mum.

A breastfed baby tends to lose more weight in the early days than a formula fed baby. Midwives who lack experience of breastfed babies often panic when the baby loses 12% of birth weight - but that’s absolutely normal for breastfed babies. The midwife then freaks out the mum by telling her the baby has lost too much weight because she obviously isn’t producing enough milk, then they push her to supplement with formula, and that’s the beginning of the end. Once she starts formula feeding she isn’t putting as much time or emphasis on breastfeeding, she isn’t getting the stimulation required to boost her milk supply, and it’s game over. When in actual fact the 12% weight loss was normal, the small amount of milk she was producing was normal, and she just needed to keep on feeding regularly until her milk supply was increased. The fault is with the midwives who don’t have enough professional knowledge about breastfeeding or breastfed babies and think they should be the same as formula fed babies.

@Donitta

A breastfed baby tends to lose more weight in the early days than a formula fed baby. Midwives who lack experience of breastfed babies often panic when the baby loses 12% of birth weight - but that’s absolutely normal for breastfed babies. The midwife then freaks out the mum by telling her the baby has lost too much weight because she obviously isn’t producing enough milk, then they push her to supplement with formula, and that’s the beginning of the end. Once she starts formula feeding she isn’t putting as much time or emphasis on breastfeeding, she isn’t getting the stimulation required to boost her milk supply, and it’s game over. When in actual fact the 12% weight loss was normal, the small amount of milk she was producing was normal, and she just needed to keep on feeding regularly until her milk supply was increased. The fault is with the midwives who don’t have enough professional knowledge about breastfeeding or breastfed babies and think they should be the same as formula fed babies.

Yes they also don’t take into account artificial water weight due to iv fluids. If a child is happy, developing normally, plenty of dirty nappies, that is the sign of a well fed breastfed baby - not necessarily weight gain. Most bf babies make up or exceed their birth centile eventually by 2. But the problem is that UK midwives have very little experience of babies over 2 weeks old.

Not true every case by a long shot, many mothers mix feed very successfully
Game over for exclusive breastfeeding then. Mums usually mix feed because they don’t have enough milk to exclusively breastfeed. And the reason they don’t have enough milk is because they’re giving formula and therefore not sitting with a hungry baby clamped to their breast every waking minute.

@sunglassesintherain I'm not sure if you're still watching this thread.

Have you been able to talk to anyone or get any kind of de-brief regarding your delivery? Because it sounds like that was very difficult and I wonder perhaps if your feelings towards that are shaping your feelings towards BF.

I had a negative experience with my first child. I had a failed induction and my DS was very distressed. I had an emergency c section. I didn't BF after, because it was too hard. I didn't have similar feelings about BF. But I did have the feelings you describe of anxiety towards your DC and questioning what I had done wrong/failed to do that resulted in a c section.

I'm not sure if I have helped in any way with my perspective. If it does help, my DS is 8 YO now and while I do feel guilty about how depressed I was when he was a baby, he has no recollection of this. And our relationship is a good one.

Where I went wrong was having a child who couldn't be arsed to work hard for something even when it affected, literally, his livelihood.
Managed 3 weeks of breastfeeding, jaundice, failing to feed enough to give him the strength to wake up and cry when hungry, loss of weight that didn't bounce back immediately.
Switched to bottles and he glugged it down his lazy throat and thrived.

He's still an eat to live rather than live to eat young adult.
As a teen I found an abandoned pot noodle full of cold water. When I asked him what was wrong with it he said he couldn't find a clean fork.

Great comments @GhibliKhan.

Of course there are many reasons women choose to combo feed. To be able to share care more equally with the other parent, to share feeds and get some rest, to give their body a break if they’re feeling touched out, because their baby sleeps better after a bottle, because it’s nice to be able to leave the baby and go see friends for a few hours. So many reasons and we’re lucky to have the choice. Not everyone does.

It’s frustrating we’re still in a place where people are so passionately concerned with how other people feed their own babies.

I would hazard a guess that your milk came in late due to the c section. I think this is common and babies are weighed too early, which means they are weighed at their lightest. For some reason, c section babies have more latching problems. It could be that experiencing labour (which releases stress hormones) prepares babies for breastfeeding. The first feed being large and stretching the stomach also probably set your baby up for frustration. First feeds at the breast are only a few mls, but babies offered formula will happily take 50-70ml formula at the first feed.

*Of course there are many reasons women choose to combo feed. To be able to share care more equally with the other parent, to share feeds and get some rest, to give their body a break if they’re feeling touched out, because their baby sleeps better after a bottle, because it’s nice to be able to leave the baby and go see friends for a few hours. So many reasons and we’re lucky to have the choice. Not everyone does.

It’s frustrating we’re still in a place where people are so passionately concerned with how other people feed their own babies*

Issue is if your baby doesn’t get on with mixed feeding it often means you end up bottle feeding, as pp said.

I’m passionate about feeding not because I think anyone should do one or the other, that’s a choice. But because there is a whole load of misinformation about breastfeeding, even amongst HCP, and a this is a big contributory factor for people not breastfeeding when they wanted to. There’s no real access to sound advice, any problems are solved with formula.

For example, mixed feeding. Yes it’s great for all the reasons you give. It’s also twice the work as you’re bf and expressing and sterilising (and I found it didn’t give me a break, it meant others sat on their arses feeding while I made dinner, cleaned etc). But also in some cases it can lead to a reduction in supply as you’re not feeding as often, or the baby can prefer a bottle as it’s less work, meaning you gradually give more and more formula, until you ff. if you know that, you van make an informed decision rather than being told mixed feeding is great, then being devastated when it means the end of bf.

@ShaunOfTheWellRead

Thanks *@ChangePart1*

I think that part of the problem is that a lot of people cannot conceive that breastfeeding has its own negatives.
People know that 'It can be days until the milk comes in (true), but a baby has reserves to be able to survive that (true), which is why its perfectly normal for the baby to lose weight (true)'.

However, it's like it's almost blasphemous to acknowledge what that experience is like for the baby (i.e. a form of fasting) - and so tell me I'm giving misinformation to say that the baby is almost certainly very hungry during the period where it has to plough into its built-in energy stores to survive whilst it waits for an adequate milk supply to develop....

I wish for a world where women are given frank information the plusses and minuses of all feeding options, then left to make their own decisions without judgement. No doubt women like the OP would still feel disappointment if they weren't able to fulfil their choice in the way they desired, but less likely to feel they've 'gone wrong', when in fact they have a perfectly well fed and happy baby.

I'm far more likely to win the lottery, though...

A form of fasting and having to dig into energy reserves to survive? Again, this sort of misinformation is part of the isuue mothers are facing in this generation. No, a baby's stomach in the first 24 hours is so tiny, that it can only comfortably hold an extremely small volume of liquid, 7-15 ml to be precise, and increasing in little increments on a daily basis thereafter. Contrary to poplualr belief, milk does not just 'come in' in one fell swoop on day three; in fact it alters in volume and consistency slowly over the next two weeks, as it changes from colostrum to mature milk. Perfect for the baby and the size of their stomachs. They are not fasting, but in fact taking the amounts exactly required or them as their needs change on a daily basis.