Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

It's horrible to everyone.

@Bluntness100 i have been in that situation, ive been in poverty, i didnt leave, he left, i told him to. The relationship was toxic, damaging to us all. I was alone for a while and whilst it was hard, i had to get up and do what was needed for my children.
Yes i had to go on benefits briefly, whilst i sorted myself out, this is what the system is there for, not a lifestyle choice but as a stop gap to help people in certain situations. No amount of money could have helped with the emotional side of it, which was much worse than not having money for me. I knew i was doing the right thing for my children.
Unfortunately no one has a crystal ball to see the future, we cant plan for every eventuality in life. Did i think id have health issues in my mid 30s, No. I have just had to deal with whatever came along.
It was a bit miserable in the begining yes, but we got passed it. We have to push through for our children.
And i managed to raise well adjusted, hard working adults fully independant.
Parenting which ever way you do it is a joy and full of twists, bumps and turns along the way, its what makes us the people we are today. I am strong because of the things ive faced. No splits are not nice, they impact every part of life but so women or men know, there is absolutely light at the end of the tunnel, you can do it, it will be hard but you can.
We need to believe in each other and raise each other up. Whether you choose to be a sahp or ftw/ptwp, both have cons/pros and it is what works for your family.
I would say if your not sure, give it a try or go pt, to start with, but dont be pushed into something you dont want.
You just need to be prepared to adapt or adjust your life if need be, if the worst happens.

I was a SAHM for 10 years. DH transferred half his salary to me, although we have separate finances he never saw it as his money or my money. He always saw himself as going out to work to earn OUR money

I started working in Oct 2019, got the job within 2 hours of being interviewed and have excelled at it. Not working for 10 years didnt damage my prospects at all.

However, I do think there is something to be said for those who arent married, arent on tenancy/deeds and have zero protection should their relationship tank and the MNetters may not say it nicely but their advice is justified.

I think there are more threads started inviting comment on SAHM. I don't recall seeing a thread asking what people really thought of WOHP or an WOHP equivalent of "what do SAHM do all day?"
Such threads do seem get the inevitable bingo card of negative comments about SAHM.

OP, you are an intelligent and educational woman, fully qualified in a good profession. You carried out a full cost / benefit analysis before taking your career break, you have enjoyed your time at home, and you are now returning to a rewarding career.

Bluntly, why do you give any kind of fuck what a bunch of strangers on the internet think? MN is great. I’ve been here since the days of Brian from Hull. But the negativity and constant criticism of AIBU in particular are insidious and if those things are bothering you then the answer is to hide the topic or step away from the site for a bit, not to start yet another bunfight.

@Kottbullar

I think there are more threads started inviting comment on SAHM. I don't recall seeing a thread asking what people really thought of WOHP or an WOHP equivalent of "what do SAHM do all day?" Such threads do seem get the inevitable bingo card of negative comments about SAHM.

There's plenty just worded differently and some times framed as an ex wife issue.

Mostly they're in the vein of "how dare they want/need a break from their kids " or "how dare they send their kids off at the weekend/holidays " since they don't see them all week anyways.

Oh and the deeply emotive,hand wringing , "won't someone think of the children" about babies/kids in childcare all day and only home to be put to bed.

@Kottbullar

I think there are more threads started inviting comment on SAHM. I don't recall seeing a thread asking what people really thought of WOHP or an WOHP equivalent of "what do SAHM do all day?" Such threads do seem get the inevitable bingo card of negative comments about SAHM.

That's a fair point. I think it largely stems from the fact that being a sahp isn't 'the norm' as such anymore? I think you do see posts where women discuss the merits/pitfalls of part time Vs full time work though

Just in relation to time out from teaching, I think that all got harder when pay stopped being portable. A candidate without recent experience might be offered main scale point 1 as they'll have a lot of catching up to do, same as an nqt, whereas back in the day you could go back into your grade more easily.

I also think it's confirmation bias, with regard to how much negativity there is on the site towards sah / woh. You hear what you want to hear.

@ThanksItHasPockets

OP, you are an intelligent and educational woman, fully qualified in a good profession. You carried out a full cost / benefit analysis before taking your career break, you have enjoyed your time at home, and you are now returning to a rewarding career.

Bluntly, why do you give any kind of fuck what a bunch of strangers on the internet think? MN is great. I’ve been here since the days of Brian from Hull. But the negativity and constant criticism of AIBU in particular are insidious and if those things are bothering you then the answer is to hide the topic or step away from the site for a bit, not to start yet another bunfight.

Thank you for your kind words. Oh it wasn't my intention to start a bunfight! I just wanted to raise the issue.

I give a f*CK as, as I mentioned in my op when I started the process of applying (although thankfully it was quick to get a job) my confidence was really knocked...not entirely, but certainly in part by the comments on MN.

I certainly agree with many posters than being a sahm has its risks. I suppose I just wanted to readdress the balance...it's not all doom and gloom for your prospects if you take a few years out and I want people to know that.

I also suppose I wanted to remind people about the impact of their words. There is a balance to be had between genuine concern for a vulnerable position and making sweeping statements about vulnerability to make catty comments.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss for most jobs you can either coast or work hard. Being a SAHP is no different.
Of course you have the ones who are active PTA participants, meal plan, help with kids homework etc etc. But you also have the ones who don’t do any of that. When people list things that take 5 mins ‘life admin and paying bills’ as the reason they’re so stressed you have to wonder whether they’re actually being efficient. Unless they have SEN kids or similar.

@Kottbullar

I think there are more threads started inviting comment on SAHM. I don't recall seeing a thread asking what people really thought of WOHP or an WOHP equivalent of "what do SAHM do all day?" Such threads do seem get the inevitable bingo card of negative comments about SAHM.

Trolls. Place is infested with them.

I have come to believe that a lot of the nastiness about SAHMs comes from women trying to gain power and equality in a patriarchal capitalist society that only values activities undertaken as part of paid employment.

People (men and women) are constantly being told that work and earning money trumps everything and to opt out of it is intrinsically selfish and lazy. Little time is spent pondering why true choice doesn't exist for people and why pausing a career to care for children (or the elderly or disabled) is a reason for people to be penalised so heavily in terms of their financial status and future prospects. The system doesn't have to work this way yet it carries on pretty much unchallenged.

It suits the men who can offload the majority of the unpaid care burden onto their partners whilst they forge ahead in their careers. It suits career minded women who never wanted to take time away from work to care for family. There are lots of women (and men) somewhere in the middle though, who perhaps would have ideally liked to spend more time caring for their loved ones but felt that the financial and career penalties that would be levied for doing this would be too high. I often find that sadly this group are the worst for demonising SAHPs as they feel most keen to assert the benefits of their sacrifices. Ironically of course these people should be fighting on the same side as SAHPs to reform society so that true choice exists.

[quote Sweak]@TwoAndAnOnion I'm not saying being a sahm is suitable for everyone. But I've seen so many posts on here critiquing women of any background for this choice. I also appreciate for some women being a sahm isn't a choice...childcare costs are huge it often makes it not viable to work...although MN would tell me I should work for nothing! I've seen that several times. Actually advocating making a financial loss.[/quote]
No that’s not it. What you’ve seen is advice that overall you are better off working because of employer pension contributions etc. And also the career prospects and a higher salary in the future so your lifetime earnings and retirement is more comfortable. No one has said that you should make a net loss. You seem to creating evidence to suit your narrative.

No. I agree some points are about pension etc. But some posters have suggested working when wages don't cover it. Each to their own, if you want to do that as you are looking ahead to pension/promotions no problem. But I think it's reasonable not to want to work for your entire salary (and sometimes more) to pay childcare fees. Again it's about making the choices that you feel best fit for your family/situation

@Bumpitybumper

I have come to believe that a lot of the nastiness about SAHMs comes from women trying to gain power and equality in a patriarchal capitalist society that only values activities undertaken as part of paid employment.

People (men and women) are constantly being told that work and earning money trumps everything and to opt out of it is intrinsically selfish and lazy. Little time is spent pondering why true choice doesn't exist for people and why pausing a career to care for children (or the elderly or disabled) is a reason for people to be penalised so heavily in terms of their financial status and future prospects. The system doesn't have to work this way yet it carries on pretty much unchallenged.

It suits the men who can offload the majority of the unpaid care burden onto their partners whilst they forge ahead in their careers. It suits career minded women who never wanted to take time away from work to care for family. There are lots of women (and men) somewhere in the middle though, who perhaps would have ideally liked to spend more time caring for their loved ones but felt that the financial and career penalties that would be levied for doing this would be too high. I often find that sadly this group are the worst for demonising SAHPs as they feel most keen to assert the benefits of their sacrifices. Ironically of course these people should be fighting on the same side as SAHPs to reform society so that true choice exists.

Really interesting response. Often it's framed as anti feminist not to work...in a way you are saying the opposite, as it's about a true choice. I suppose society won't ever be reformed to allow such free choice as the powers that be want all the working age working to pay tax.

Mumsnet is full of absolutely vile people who seem to make it a pastime to come on here and shoot people down for anything. I rarely come on here any more for this reason.

@motherloaded

After seeing posts accusing SAH mums to be useless, to be boring, to "prostitute themselves"!!!

I completely agree with you.

It's jealousy. No one is that vile and offensive if they genuinely care for the financial independence of a stranger. So it's jealousy, pure and simple, from someone who hates their job, hates their situation and is basically miserable.

It's not jealousy. PP raised a valid point of how this affects equality in the workplace.

For as long as women get choose to stay home or work, and men are expected to work, true equality won't exist. Men who grow up in households where there's a SAHM tend to go on expecting their partner to do all wife duties/home duties because of the example set at home.

It's your life and your choice but don't assume people are jealous - people might just have different values and feel strongly about it.

Maybe more men should stay at home, instead of everybody going to work.

I always think there has to be a saturation point with employment and there already aren't enough jobs to go round in some sectors.

Good thread. I gave up for while as creche so costly for 2. Back working now. Found I got comments as kids got older. Hard if your confidence is low which mine was for a while

@Bumpitybumper people taking time away from work aren’t ‘penalised’ rather it’s the need of the job market. If you had loads more qualified candidates then obviously the ones who have spent less time working go to the bottom of the pile. But if you’re in a field with a shortage then people even with outdated experience can get considered.
Also promotions work the same way. If you have spent more time working (on the right things of course) you have more experience, ergo you get promoted more quickly. Of course this varies depending on the job, and I can only speak for my field and experience

@LuckyMcDucky

Maybe more men should stay at home, instead of everybody going to work.

I always think there has to be a saturation point with employment and there already aren't enough jobs to go round in some sectors.

That's an interesting point, but it seems like men make these decisions from a logical point of view (not being a SAHP, working) whereas women are driven emotionally as they want to be with their children.

And if we did get to a point of women and men equally becoming SAHP, something I haven't seen mentioned is the strain of being the sole provider.

It's stressful to have for example 3 people relying on your income. You could lose your job, get made redundant, get sick. It's so much easier to navigate this with two sets of income. The risk overall is far greater when one person doesn't work, as they're also less likely to find a job as easily or a well paid job as easily if the spouse gets sick for example.

Anyone with two brain cells can surely understand that some families are simply more financially secure than others. It’s overall wealth and assets that count, fundamentally, because that’s what’s going to determine how quickly you have a roof over your head in the event of a divorce. Even in cases where women do work, they are invariably living a two-salary lifestyle anyway. How many could maintain that lifestyle on one salary after a separation; or get a mortgage on a similar property, for example.

So it’s not about “working v SAHM.” This is nonsense. You could have a couple where both are working and on good salaries but they’re up to their eyeballs in debt. This is what I call financial risk.

Yes some SAHMs will be in precarious positions but this is by no means inevitable. Families come in all manifestations! In our family, my earnings were only ever going to be a fraction of DH’s. Our lifestyles have developed according to funds he has generated anyway. If my salary mattered, or made a difference to my children in terms of holidays or opportunities they could have, I would have worked. This is obvious. In a different marriage I would not have been a SAHM. It’s very circumstantial and until you’ve walked in another woman’s shoes, nobody can say what they would have done.

SAHMs don’t need thread upon thread of so-called “advice.” Many of them will be in far stronger financial circumstances than those giving the advice - this is the truth of the matter, but they can’t really say that because it sounds arrogant. And even for those who are taking a risk - no doubt it’s a calculated risk and one they are prepared to take. Maybe they had a career that is relatively easy to get back into; or maybe they have other plans to retrain and change direction? Not everyone is fixed in one industry or corporate ladder for life and nor should they have to be. You only get one life and please give women credit to do what they are more motivated to do within the specific contexts they find themselves in.

Lots of stupid assumptions and generalisations on both sides.

Agree that mn is full of vile people. Present company excepted of course.

I will add that I have seen insufferable smuggery from SAHMs on mn ... my husband would never dream of cheating/cutting me off financially, I would never dream of palming my children off to strangers because I love them so much, you can all be a SAHM if you make the necessary sacrifices.... gets people's backs up.

That's an interesting point, but it seems like men make these decisions from a logical point of view (not being a SAHP, working) whereas women are driven emotionally as they want to be with their children

YY @Sunflowers095. Also, women are guilted either way and men aren't! A mother's place is in the wrong, as we know.

Yes, there is strain when one parent is the sole provider. However, arguably, cost of living is artificially high because everyone is expected to work, so everybody is expected to contribute financially and therefore only a select few can realistically afford to only have one parent in work.