Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

I can only talk of my experience and other mums who have had time off. It will depend on how long you have been a sahp for. I also think employers don't view being a sahp the same as being unemployed as you have a reason as such. Although you are factually correct you are unemployed

Why would it be viewed differently? It very much depends what you've done with that time and how you present it on an application form or at interview.

How difficult it is to get a job after a period of being a sahm completely depends on the industry you work in and other factors like your skill set and the connections you have made.

As an employer, employing someone you don't know is always a risk, if you've worked with someone before or someone comes recommended it gives them a distinct advantage. A colleague of mine has just returned to work after 4 years being at home, she was actually approach by our employer as they loved working with her and wanted her back.
I know this isn't the case for everyone but it's patronising to tell people what their own personal situation will be because it varies so much. If you work in an industry where networking and connections matter a lot and you've made good relationships then its a lot easier to return.
I actually think the scare mongering can be really off-putting for women, 5 years off doesn't have to be career suicide and there's always the opportunity to retrain too and do something completely new.

@DelBocaVista

However the OP is still adamant it's not that hard to return to work after a long absence!!

You have read all my comments so know you are oversimplifying.

It will be hard to return to the same level. It may take longer than if you didn't have a gap. You may have to do a job that you didn't do before. It will vary in difficulty based on how long the gap is. All points I have acknowledged and said myself.

My issue is with people telling mums who have taken the early years out to be at home that they are basically unemployable. It's just not true.

@FloconDeNeige

It was discrimination absolutely, but I was too ill to fight it at the time. And that ship has sailed now.

Switzerland is quite a lot more conservative than the UK (the last canton to give women the vote did so in 1991!). Many mothers don’t work here due a combination of conservative culture, very high childcare fees (it was 5,700 chf - about £5k per month for my two DC in full-time private crèche (private as there were no spaces in the public crèche, which is anyway not that much cheaper)), and finally, salaries are generally high, so living only on one wage is not a problem for most people, at least in a financial sense.

Maternity leave is short and non-negociable - 3 months (4 if you BF), which also has the effect of pushing mothers to stop working.

It was a bit harder for me to return here too, being a foreigner. But I managed it and am now on quite a lot higher salary than in my previous role (within a year; I had to work the first 5 months on a trainee salary as that was a condition of the returnship programme).

Sounds like it worked out ok in the end. A success story that you are on a higher salary now too.

I think OP that you have a very specific viewpoint that doesn't reflect the majority of jobs/careers today.

You were able to stay out of the workplace for 4 years and return to the same job. This simply isn't how the rest of the working world works. Apart from a handful of professions I can think of, vet, doctor, teacher, you catch my drift, taking time out of your role to stay at home WILL impact your career.

It's not just the time away from industry, but also upon returning, you are less employable because rightly or wrongly, many employers assume that you won't be as committed, as driven etc

I took 6 months out, in this time, my role was made redundant and I really struggled to find a job at the same level, despite being a very experienced, highly skilled and experienced professional. Had I taken a few years out I'm pretty sure I'd never got back to it.

So, from my POV I do think that bring a SAHM isn't a good choice. It's much easier to take a few years out and not have to deal with bringing up a baby and working full time and juggling childcare with your partner but I did it because I had no intention of giving up my career, and I do think I would also be horrified if my DD declared she wanted to be a SAHM because for me, that's not a career and the days where women were reliant on a man to keep them should be resigned to the dark ages.

@DelBocaVista

I can only talk of my experience and other mums who have had time off. It will depend on how long you have been a sahp for. I also think employers don't view being a sahp the same as being unemployed as you have a reason as such. Although you are factually correct you are unemployed

Why would it be viewed differently? It very much depends what you've done with that time and how you present it on an application form or at interview.

It would be viewed differently as it's a clear reason. Not that you just decided to not work for 4 years. For example, I wrote I had a gap whilst having children. Said the same thing at interview. The rest of the interview was about the job and my skills. Btw there were several candidates, and I still got the job

My issue is with people telling mums who have taken the early years out to be at home that they are basically unemployable. It's just not true.

Nobody has said that. But realism is important and that the point I'm trying to make.
I've seen the phrase 'your career can wait' so many times when it's really not that simple.

A huge number of women returners decide to re-train which can be a big commitment.

@Drunkenmonkey

How difficult it is to get a job after a period of being a sahm completely depends on the industry you work in and other factors like your skill set and the connections you have made.

As an employer, employing someone you don't know is always a risk, if you've worked with someone before or someone comes recommended it gives them a distinct advantage. A colleague of mine has just returned to work after 4 years being at home, she was actually approach by our employer as they loved working with her and wanted her back.
I know this isn't the case for everyone but it's patronising to tell people what their own personal situation will be because it varies so much. If you work in an industry where networking and connections matter a lot and you've made good relationships then its a lot easier to return.
I actually think the scare mongering can be really off-putting for women, 5 years off doesn't have to be career suicide and there's always the opportunity to retrain too and do something completely new.

Exactly. The scaremongering is why I'm still responding to be honest. I don't want other sahms to read this and panic. Yes, be mindful of your sector and gap but don't listen to scaremongering

@DelBocaVista

My issue is with people telling mums who have taken the early years out to be at home that they are basically unemployable. It's just not true.

Nobody has said that. But realism is important and that the point I'm trying to make.
I've seen the phrase 'your career can wait' so many times when it's really not that simple.

A huge number of women returners decide to re-train which can be a big commitment.

No one's said it but it's implied.

'your career can wait' will depend on the sector and how much you want to advance for sure.

But a short gap is not the end of your career in most cases.

It would be viewed differently as it's a clear reason. Not that you just decided to not work for 4 years. For example, I wrote I had a gap whilst having children. Said the same thing at interview. The rest of the interview was about the job and my skills. Btw there were several candidates, and I still got the job

Not all unemployed people are unemployed through choice!!
And when it is a choice their reasons may be just as valid as the choice you made to stay at home.

@MrsAmaretto

Firstly I think you are speaking from a very provledged position - what other professional jobs would you be able to go back to at a similar level after a 4 year break? For many women choosing to be become a SAHM would be career suicide and a waste of all the education and experience hard got.

As a general observation in a society where in theory men and women receive equal opportunities for education and career progression, and typically 2 adults need to work to cover the bills, the parent who chooses to stay at home is seen as a naive or lazy freeloader. Usually stay at home parents claim they are choosing to stay at home due to costs of childcare, working spouses crazy commute, inability to do kid sick days etc due to their high powered job. These are seen as excuses as many of us do the same and work! Very few sahp actually just say - I can’t be arsed to work and don’t need to financially so am going to fill my days with volunteering and stuff.

I work in my industry and love it, I also loved the gap year had lazing about 9-3 unemployed when my kids were at school. But I knew a short period wouldn’t effect my employability and was honest when people asked what i did “fuck all as I’m having a year off”.

That's because in my case it's not because I can't be arsed to work but because I genuinely believe it's in the overall interest of my children and family for me to stay home just for the early years, until my eldest is at school and my youngest is at 2

It's meant that I could be with my DC when they had hospital treatment and during weeks of recovery without worrying at all about work and finding someone else to be with them. My DH is starting a business and if he had to regularly drop everything, as he would have had to had I gone back to my own high pressure corporate job, his business would simply not be viable.

I agree he isn't a pension plan and I'm taking that into account. In the end, as I said earlier in the thread, as long as I can provide for my children and am not a burden to them in old age, I am content with that even if my DH disappears and I don't benefit from the overall improved financial situation we'll likely be in if his business is successful. I believe I will be employable enough to obtain some form of employment to enable this, although I've no illusions of stepping back in at the same level.

I will agree that I'm not being a martyr though, I wanted to be at home as well and so did DH, but that wasn't because I couldn't be arsed to work (I used to work 7 days a week!) but because I genuinely think my DC are benefitting. I did have some doubts about that last year though, when DC1 was stuck home with me and would otherwise have been in nursery during the pandemic. But then again I might have been needing to work from home with them there too which would have been very difficult.

Exactly. The scaremongering is why I'm still responding to be honest. I don't want other sahms to read this and panic. Yes, be mindful of your sector and gap but don't listen to scaremongering

Nobody is scaremongering. I'm offering up my professional experience and viewpoint on a subject I've been involved in for 20 years.

And to be clear, just because I believe my particular DC are benefitting, does not equate to me saying that a SAHP is optimum for all families

In fact I do sometimes wonder if nursery from a younger age is more beneficial. My DC started/will start at 2 and I'll have had about 4 years out in total

@Treacletoots

I think OP that you have a very specific viewpoint that doesn't reflect the majority of jobs/careers today.

You were able to stay out of the workplace for 4 years and return to the same job. This simply isn't how the rest of the working world works. Apart from a handful of professions I can think of, vet, doctor, teacher, you catch my drift, taking time out of your role to stay at home WILL impact your career.

It's not just the time away from industry, but also upon returning, you are less employable because rightly or wrongly, many employers assume that you won't be as committed, as driven etc

I took 6 months out, in this time, my role was made redundant and I really struggled to find a job at the same level, despite being a very experienced, highly skilled and experienced professional. Had I taken a few years out I'm pretty sure I'd never got back to it.

So, from my POV I do think that bring a SAHM isn't a good choice. It's much easier to take a few years out and not have to deal with bringing up a baby and working full time and juggling childcare with your partner but I did it because I had no intention of giving up my career, and I do think I would also be horrified if my DD declared she wanted to be a SAHM because for me, that's not a career and the days where women were reliant on a man to keep them should be resigned to the dark ages.

It's not for everyone to be a sahm. It needs careful consideration. I'm not denying it will affect your career. I'm denying it makes you extremely unemployable which has been implied on this thread

I do think I would also be horrified if my DD declared she wanted to be a SAHM because for me, that's not a career and the days where women were reliant on a man to keep them should be resigned to the dark ages.

Of course being a sahm isn't a career. It's a choice though and of all the things you daughter could be a sahm would horrify you? I'm saddened by that. My mum is just happy that I'm happy. I don't think it takes us back to the dark ages...choices are progressive.

I saw a presentation recently by an ex Crédit Suisse banker who is now a financial advisor for women, and her opening slide was ‘a husband is not a pension plan’. So true.“

My husband is an ex- Credit Suisse banker . I MN my defence, I didn’t marry him as a “pension plan” because when I met him he’s just left the marines and was skint.

@DelBocaVista

It would be viewed differently as it's a clear reason. Not that you just decided to not work for 4 years. For example, I wrote I had a gap whilst having children. Said the same thing at interview. The rest of the interview was about the job and my skills. Btw there were several candidates, and I still got the job

Not all unemployed people are unemployed through choice!!
And when it is a choice their reasons may be just as valid as the choice you made to stay at home.

I don't deny that. I don't trump other unemployed people for having children. I'm telling you it's viewed as a fair reason not to have been working. It didn't raise any eyebrows

Sweak
Sorry, that seemed angry, I'm just still a little sore about it, I was in the pharmaceutical industry and assumed I'd walk into a job! I was between 4 and 5 years as a sahm. As for books so I'm self published but have a fantastic cover designer and editor and am hoping within the next year I'll be making minimum wage monthly. Happy the way it all turned out in the end and hope some day to become a household name but that's just a dream although it's great to earn and to have readers who want more!

@DelBocaVista

Exactly. The scaremongering is why I'm still responding to be honest. I don't want other sahms to read this and panic. Yes, be mindful of your sector and gap but don't listen to scaremongering

Nobody is scaremongering. I'm offering up my professional experience and viewpoint on a subject I've been involved in for 20 years.

You are still arguing with me when I've said I agree with you it's not necessarily going to be a walk in the park for everyone.

Someone (I don't think it was you though) actually used the term career suicide. That's scaremongering.

I was a SAHM for 20 years.
I could have returned in my original field at the same level without difficulty. Admittedly that would be minus 20 years of promotion prospects but not the career death that some predict.
As it happens I retrained a bit and work in a different field now. Not especially well paid but adequate to support myself. Again - not a career death. A considered choice so that I was able to spend time with my children when they were growing up.

@Templetreeee exactly!

There’s absolutely no reason for any bashing , SAHP/WOHP everyone makes choices. The key fact however is that they are CHOICES. A small number of people may have their hand forced (e.g high needs children) but otherwise a choice. If someone likes staying home for the kids all power to them. But there’s no need to martyr themselves, or go on about how it’s such a slog, or a huge sacrifice because ‘ DH with a big man job doesn’t have time for all this’. Women in big man jobs certainly do all of it and more. You make a choice. Own it. Dont be insecure.
Equally to WOHM thinking that SAHP are less intelligent or didn’t have proper jobs. I jknow many SAHP who were programmers, doctors and classical musicians.
Of coursedi the wider social implications of our choices are a different

I don't deny that. I don't trump other unemployed people for having children. I'm telling you it's viewed as a fair reason not to have been working. It didn't raise any eyebrows

In your sector!!

I'm telling you that I have a pretty good overview of the labour market as a whole.
Teaching is a particular sector which is in no way representative of the labour market as a whole. There is a skills shortage in particular subjects/areas, they have a high proportion of female workers so are used to dealing with women returners in fact they attract that group due to the term time only aspect.
That makes it quite unique and more likely to view women returners more favourably.

Someone (I don't think it was you though) actually used the term career suicide. That's scaremongering.

It definitely wasn't me. As a qualified careers adviser that would be a pretty shit thing for me to say!! Plus it's incorrect.

@stayathomer

Sweak Sorry, that seemed angry, I'm just still a little sore about it, I was in the pharmaceutical industry and assumed I'd walk into a job! I was between 4 and 5 years as a sahm. As for books so I'm self published but have a fantastic cover designer and editor and am hoping within the next year I'll be making minimum wage monthly. Happy the way it all turned out in the end and hope some day to become a household name but that's just a dream although it's great to earn and to have readers who want more!

I'm sorry for my comment then, I can see it would be insulting. Not my intention. 5 years I'm really shocked. I would be sore about it too. I wonder if it's the area you live in? Or the timing...recession maybe?

Best of luck with the books. Children's or adults? I admire anyone who follows their dreams like this. Self publishing is a lot of work too.

@stayathomer

I wish you all the best on your journey as an author! 🍀

@DelBocaVista if you were advising someone who has had 4 years out, where would you suggest they start? Had office based corporate role, management level (12 reports) at a company very highly respected in the industry