Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

At this point, you notice quite a lot of women retrain and I’m now seeing this quite a lot.

I would completely agree.
At least a third of the students on my course are women who are retraining after a prolonged period of being at home or working part time in a 'job' as opposed to a 'career'.

That pretty much sums up the response to me saying I found a job relatively easily. I do acknowledge my profession is in demand so it might have taken longer if I did something else...but I'm certain I would have got a job eventually!People who have been to prison for 5 years plus still get jobs (obviously not teaching!). I'm sure sahms can get one too.
Difference being somebody wants you to get a job when you get out of prison! When I tried to get a job I went into the local unemployment office who told me they couldn't hear what me because I hadn't signed on. Recruitment offices told me my job title was now obsolete and the market was stuffed with graduates. I tried everything and anything for 3 years, shop, office and laboratory. I rarely got replied to let alone an interview. No shop/fast food interviews at all. I'm lucky I started writing books beccause I was honestly never getting a job. Ever. Please don't say stuff like that again, it's so insulting

Firstly I think you are speaking from a very provledged position - what other professional jobs would you be able to go back to at a similar level after a 4 year break? For many women choosing to be become a SAHM would be career suicide and a waste of all the education and experience hard got.

As a general observation in a society where in theory men and women receive equal opportunities for education and career progression, and typically 2 adults need to work to cover the bills, the parent who chooses to stay at home is seen as a naive or lazy freeloader. Usually stay at home parents claim they are choosing to stay at home due to costs of childcare, working spouses crazy commute, inability to do kid sick days etc due to their high powered job. These are seen as excuses as many of us do the same and work! Very few sahp actually just say - I can’t be arsed to work and don’t need to financially so am going to fill my days with volunteering and stuff.

I work in my industry and love it, I also loved the gap year had lazing about 9-3 unemployed when my kids were at school. But I knew a short period wouldn’t effect my employability and was honest when people asked what i did “fuck all as I’m having a year off”.

For a very long time being a SAHM was the default - for middle class families at least -- and we still have a long moral and social legacy that says its optimal.

While I agree with the rest of your post I disagree with this.
Historically upper and middle class women diid their " work" at home.
It was a huge job managing a large home, finances, house keeping ,servants( cook, laundress, maids, gardeners, governess etc) managing food raising/ provisions plus the extensive and very structured social lives of the couple.

The children would be under the care of a nanny plus governess and often boys would be sent away to Boarding school at 7 or 8.
The lower class women also worked at home( laundry, mending, piecework ) but also their children accompanied them to the fields, were cared for by siblings or worked from a young age.

During the 2nd WW servants were drafted ( mostly men) or took over the jobs of drafted men ( women)
Obviously after the 2nd WW returning men needed jobs and so in the late 40s/ early 50s the modern SAHM ideal was born along with time and work saving appliances.
Women were often employed in admin, teaching and nursing until they married.
The routine of middle classes having servants disappeared mostly.

There was no time in history where children had spent so much time solely with their mothers until then and so the modern SAHM has never been the historical default.

@DioneTheDiabolist

It's horrible to everyone.

true dat

@DelBocaVista

What I'm saying is its not a complete disaster for your employability to have 4-5 years off (as it's implied on MN) I'm not saying it has no impact at all

It really does depend on the sector.
A big problem we have is that there is very little support for women returners to work or any adult needing careers support tbh.

Which sector do you think it causes an issue for? Genuinely interested

Very few sahp actually just say - I can’t be arsed to work and don’t need to financially so am going to fill my days with volunteering and stuff.

This is the type of comment that sahm endure sometimes and as 1 myself it had fuck all to do with can't be arsed and everything to do what was right for my family

@stayathomer

That pretty much sums up the response to me saying I found a job relatively easily. I do acknowledge my profession is in demand so it might have taken longer if I did something else...but I'm certain I would have got a job eventually!People who have been to prison for 5 years plus still get jobs (obviously not teaching!). I'm sure sahms can get one too. Difference being somebody wants you to get a job when you get out of prison! When I tried to get a job I went into the local unemployment office who told me they couldn't hear what me because I hadn't signed on. Recruitment offices told me my job title was now obsolete and the market was stuffed with graduates. I tried everything and anything for 3 years, shop, office and laboratory. I rarely got replied to let alone an interview. No shop/fast food interviews at all. I'm lucky I started writing books beccause I was honestly never getting a job. Ever. Please don't say stuff like that again, it's so insulting

I'm sorry you found it insulting. How long were you a sahm before trying to return to work? I'm assuming it must have been a fairly long time for recruitment agents to basically rubbish your past work experience? Wonderful you are a writer..it's quite hard to get published these days

I agree that it’s pointless to continually berate someone when the horse has already bolted. But I still maintain that the potential risks of staying at home, more often than not, need stating.

I ended up at home for 4 years, although I wasn’t really a SAHM for all that time. I lost my job when I had severe hyperemesis gravidarum in my first pregnancy until term and was in and out of hospital. I went back after 4 months mat leave (as it is here in Switzerland) and was told my contract wasn’t being renewed after all. We decided to have a 2nd DC quickly as I had severe HG again and then when he was 4 months old, I started looking to go back to work.

I’m a pharmaceutical scientist with a PhD in chemistry, MBA, bilingual. Despite all this, it was very difficult to even get an interview as the gap was constantly cited as the problem. In the end I joined a career return programme and am now back in big pharma as a senior scientist, but it was far from easy. I am fortunate that salaries are very high here and I can make up for lost time pension-wise (although DH paid my base pension contributions while I wasn’t working). But this is largely down to good fortune.

So whilst it is absolutely possible to get back to work after SAH, it shouldn’t be underestimated how difficult it can be.

@MrsAmaretto

Firstly I think you are speaking from a very provledged position - what other professional jobs would you be able to go back to at a similar level after a 4 year break? For many women choosing to be become a SAHM would be career suicide and a waste of all the education and experience hard got.

As a general observation in a society where in theory men and women receive equal opportunities for education and career progression, and typically 2 adults need to work to cover the bills, the parent who chooses to stay at home is seen as a naive or lazy freeloader. Usually stay at home parents claim they are choosing to stay at home due to costs of childcare, working spouses crazy commute, inability to do kid sick days etc due to their high powered job. These are seen as excuses as many of us do the same and work! Very few sahp actually just say - I can’t be arsed to work and don’t need to financially so am going to fill my days with volunteering and stuff.

I work in my industry and love it, I also loved the gap year had lazing about 9-3 unemployed when my kids were at school. But I knew a short period wouldn’t effect my employability and was honest when people asked what i did “fuck all as I’m having a year off”.

I have acknowledged several times already the profession I've returned to probably made my experience easier.

Saying 4 years off would be 'career suicide' is very dramatic. I have acknowledged 4-5 years off will affect the level you are likely to be able to return to. That's trade off. My point is this gap doesn't make you unemployable.

I find your post quite rude actually. My choice not to work for 4 years was not 'lazing about', I'm not 'niave' or a 'freeloader'. My contribution has been in a different way...we don't pay for childcare. You say childcare costs are one of the excuses...no it's part of my decision making. I wanted to spend extra time with my children in the early years. It's not that I 'can't be arsed to work'.

@Tittyfilarious

Very few sahp actually just say - I can’t be arsed to work and don’t need to financially so am going to fill my days with volunteering and stuff.

This is the type of comment that sahm endure sometimes and as 1 myself it had fuck all to do with can't be arsed and everything to do what was right for my family

Yes it was a really insulting comment wasn't it

Which sector do you think it causes an issue for? Genuinely interested

Academia - just going on maternity leave can negatively impact your career progression.

But essentially any sector that is competitive, requires you to update your skills and knowledge regularly and those where recent experience is important.

This isn't just me speculating, it's based on years of analysing and understanding the labour market and years of researching career decision making behaviour.

So whilst it is absolutely possible to get back to work after SAH, it shouldn’t be underestimated how difficult it can be.

Absolutely. This is important to acknowledge.

I'm sorry you found it insulting.

That’s not an apology.

@FloconDeNeige

I agree that it’s pointless to continually berate someone when the horse has already bolted. But I still maintain that the potential risks of staying at home, more often than not, need stating.

I ended up at home for 4 years, although I wasn’t really a SAHM for all that time. I lost my job when I had severe hyperemesis gravidarum in my first pregnancy until term and was in and out of hospital. I went back after 4 months mat leave (as it is here in Switzerland) and was told my contract wasn’t being renewed after all. We decided to have a 2nd DC quickly as I had severe HG again and then when he was 4 months old, I started looking to go back to work.

I’m a pharmaceutical scientist with a PhD in chemistry, MBA, bilingual. Despite all this, it was very difficult to even get an interview as the gap was constantly cited as the problem. In the end I joined a career return programme and am now back in big pharma as a senior scientist, but it was far from easy. I am fortunate that salaries are very high here and I can make up for lost time pension-wise (although DH paid my base pension contributions while I wasn’t working). But this is largely down to good fortune.

So whilst it is absolutely possible to get back to work after SAH, it shouldn’t be underestimated how difficult it can be.

I appreciate you stating more about your own experiences. It's helped me understand why you have your view you aren't budging from!

I do acknowledge some sectors it would be an issue. Medicine in particular you would need to keep practising to keep up to date and for current legislation. Although I'm sure there's probably some course for returners..I'm not sure.

I'm interested in your experience here though...particularly given your absence was largely medical and pregnancy related...I'm surprised the gap was cited as it sounds a bit like discrimation. Do you think so? What's the culture in Switzerland about mother's working?

@PlumpAndDeliciousFatcat

I'm sorry you found it insulting.

That’s not an apology.

I do still believe what I said. I will admit my comment was simplistic though, and I'm surprised that her prior work experience was disregarded. Hence why i have asked how long the gap, I'm referring to a 5 year period so I wonder if it's longer or not. It was not my intention to insult anyone so I am sorry for causing offence. I don't change my sentiment (yet at least) but could have worded it better.

I have acknowledged several times already the profession I've returned to probably made my experience easier.

I think the problem is that you genuinely don't seem to realise what a massive understatement this is. You're also very naive about the job prospects of people getting out prison! 60% still unemployed after a year and a lot of those who are employed are doing the least sought after kind of jobs. I think that you're really blinkered to what the employment market is actually like for most people.

I do still believe what I said. I will admit my comment was simplistic though, and I'm surprised that her prior work experience was disregarded. Hence why i have asked how long the gap, I'm referring to a 5 year period so I wonder if it's longer or not. It was not my intention to insult anyone so I am sorry for causing offence. I don't change my sentiment (yet at least) but could have worded it better.

Your view of the labour market is very misguided.
You seem quite adamant that it's not that difficult to get a job after a long period of unemployment (which essentially being a SAHP is whether you agree with that sentiment or not)
It's far more challenging than you realise.

It was discrimination absolutely, but I was too ill to fight it at the time. And that ship has sailed now.

Switzerland is quite a lot more conservative than the UK (the last canton to give women the vote did so in 1991!). Many mothers don’t work here due a combination of conservative culture, very high childcare fees (it was 5,700 chf - about £5k per month for my two DC in full-time private crèche (private as there were no spaces in the public crèche, which is anyway not that much cheaper)), and finally, salaries are generally high, so living only on one wage is not a problem for most people, at least in a financial sense.

Maternity leave is short and non-negociable - 3 months (4 if you BF), which also has the effect of pushing mothers to stop working.

It was a bit harder for me to return here too, being a foreigner. But I managed it and am now on quite a lot higher salary than in my previous role (within a year; I had to work the first 5 months on a trainee salary as that was a condition of the returnship programme).

Hardback - I think that’s a bit harsh because all any of us can do is speak from direct experience and the OP is just stating how things were for her. You have given your experience too and both are equally valid. Unless you happen to have undertaken extensive research in this area, none of us can really claim to have an objective oversight of “what the employment market is like for most people” as none of us are “most people,” just individuals speaking from personal experience.

Luckily your value as a human being is not measured by how much you earned and nobody is at all interested in your CV (with or without gaps) in the end.

@Hardbackwriter

I have acknowledged several times already the profession I've returned to probably made my experience easier.

I think the problem is that you genuinely don't seem to realise what a massive understatement this is. You're also very naive about the job prospects of people getting out prison! 60% still unemployed after a year and a lot of those who are employed are doing the least sought after kind of jobs. I think that you're really blinkered to what the employment market is actually like for most people.

I'm no expert on ex offenders...I will admit it was a fairly flippant comment to make a point.

I'm aware the employment market is competitive..depending on the state of the country, the sector etc. I know now especially is tough. I don't live under a rock. I read, watch the news and have friends and family who aren't just teachers.

I'm not saying returning to work is easy and you would get a job straight away. I acknowledge you may return at a lower level, or even doing something completely different. I'm not blinkered.

It is blinkered to right someone off for a 4 year gap that can be explained and in many (not all) cases not a reflection of attitudes outside of mn!

@paloma10

Hardback - I think that’s a bit harsh because all any of us can do is speak from direct experience and the OP is just stating how things were for her. You have given your experience too and both are equally valid. Unless you happen to have undertaken extensive research in this area, none of us can really claim to have an objective oversight of “what the employment market is like for most people” as none of us are “most people,” just individuals speaking from personal experience.

I have undertaken extensive research and can say with confidence what the labour market is like. It is my job to understand this! It's also my husbands job so between us we're pretty knowledgeable. However the OP is still adamant it's not that hard to return to work after a long absence!!

@DelBocaVista

I do still believe what I said. I will admit my comment was simplistic though, and I'm surprised that her prior work experience was disregarded. Hence why i have asked how long the gap, I'm referring to a 5 year period so I wonder if it's longer or not. It was not my intention to insult anyone so I am sorry for causing offence. I don't change my sentiment (yet at least) but could have worded it better.

Your view of the labour market is very misguided.
You seem quite adamant that it's not that difficult to get a job after a long period of unemployment (which essentially being a SAHP is whether you agree with that sentiment or not)
It's far more challenging than you realise.

I can only talk of my experience and other mums who have had time off. It will depend on how long you have been a sahp for. I also think employers don't view being a sahp the same as being unemployed as you have a reason as such. Although you are factually correct you are unemployed

The culture is changing here though now, which is good.

I saw a presentation recently by an ex Crédit Suisse banker who is now a financial advisor for women, and her opening slide was ‘a husband is not a pension plan’. So true.