Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

@DelBocaVista

I don't deny that. I don't trump other unemployed people for having children. I'm telling you it's viewed as a fair reason not to have been working. It didn't raise any eyebrows

In your sector!!

I'm telling you that I have a pretty good overview of the labour market as a whole.
Teaching is a particular sector which is in no way representative of the labour market as a whole. There is a skills shortage in particular subjects/areas, they have a high proportion of female workers so are used to dealing with women returners in fact they attract that group due to the term time only aspect.
That makes it quite unique and more likely to view women returners more favourably.

Valid points. Look, I actually think we agree more than it appears. I acknowledge being a sahp will affect your career. I'm just saying it's not the disaster MN makes out! People can and will get jobs again.

@MiddlesexGirl

I was a SAHM for 20 years. I could have returned in my original field at the same level without difficulty. Admittedly that would be minus 20 years of promotion prospects but not the career death that some predict. As it happens I retrained a bit and work in a different field now. Not especially well paid but adequate to support myself. Again - not a career death. A considered choice so that I was able to spend time with my children when they were growing up.

@MiddlesexGirl can you share the original sector?

[quote MyPetSaurus]@DelBocaVista if you were advising someone who has had 4 years out, where would you suggest they start? Had office based corporate role, management level (12 reports) at a company very highly respected in the industry[/quote]
I'd want to have a chat with them about what they're looking for.
What type of job do you want, what industry, hours, f/t, p/t etc THEN look at skills,qualities, experience and qualifications.
Those questions would need to be answered first then you could look at a more practical action plan.

It's worth noting that if you went to university then you might be entitled to access support from the careers service. Many of them offer careers advice for life.

@DelBocaVista thank you. I think the answer would be - whatever I can get at first! I appreciate that could be short sighted too in a way.

That's useful to know about uni, thank you. I'm very prepared to spend time getting myself back up to date before applying (although have been keeping up with industry developments)

Can you not for one second see a viewpoint from someone who doesn't work in the same field as you?

My sector moves incredibly fast. 4 years is a life time and expecting to get a job at the same level at this time, you would be laughed out of an interview.

And yes I would be horrified if my daughter chose to be a SAHM over a career. Your suggestion that there are worse things, is irrelevant because we're not comparing SAHM to being, say a criminal. But rather comparing bring a SAHM to having a fulfilling and equal to her partner's career.

@Treacletoots

Can you not for one second see a viewpoint from someone who doesn't work in the same field as you?

My sector moves incredibly fast. 4 years is a life time and expecting to get a job at the same level at this time, you would be laughed out of an interview.

And yes I would be horrified if my daughter chose to be a SAHM over a career. Your suggestion that there are worse things, is irrelevant because we're not comparing SAHM to being, say a criminal. But rather comparing bring a SAHM to having a fulfilling and equal to her partner's career.

I have said several times how it would differ in a different field and it's not going to work for everyone. You are choosing to ignore that to imply I'm a) wrong and b) ignorant

"I would be horrified if my daughter used full time childcare instead of being at home with her children." Imagine the responses there would be on this thread if I wrote that.

I also said returning to the same level would be hard. But go on, ignore the comments that don't suit you

@Treacletoots what if your DD took time out and retrained after children, for example? It's possible she may not be in a fulfilling career at the time of having DC of her own.

I think I'd be wanting mine to be aware of the facts and risks and then supporting their choice

[quote MyPetSaurus]@DelBocaVista thank you. I think the answer would be - whatever I can get at first! I appreciate that could be short sighted too in a way.

That's useful to know about uni, thank you. I'm very prepared to spend time getting myself back up to date before applying (although have been keeping up with industry developments)[/quote]
Feel free to pm me if you want any specific information.
I'm about to return to my marking now but I'll be back online tomorrow:)

I do wish I hadn't opened this thread as I knew what would happen, it just makes me feel awful! Which isn't the fault of other posters of course but entirely my own, I knew what the risks were when I took a career break, I'm prepared to own my decision and I still feel roughly the same about my own prospects as I did before reading all these threads. It does make me feel pretty crap though to know that there are so many people such a negative opinion about this particular choice.

It doesn't reflect the attitudes of others in real life as far as I can tell but perhaps people are just being polite in person.

Don’t worry MyPetSaurus. You will understand your own circumstances better than anyone else. This is Planet MN, of course, not real life.

@MyPetSaurus

I do wish I hadn't opened this thread as I knew what would happen, it just makes me feel awful! Which isn't the fault of other posters of course but entirely my own, I knew what the risks were when I took a career break, I'm prepared to own my decision and I still feel roughly the same about my own prospects as I did before reading all these threads. It does make me feel pretty crap though to know that there are so many people such a negative opinion about this particular choice.

It doesn't reflect the attitudes of others in real life as far as I can tell but perhaps people are just being polite in person.

I totally understand. I feel the same when I open threads like this too. I was hoping it might take a different turn if I started the thread and engaged more. I wanted it to be positive, to stop the negativity as it really does make you feel crap. I was hoping 'my story' would make women like us not panic when they read these threads. Sadly I don't think the thread turned out that way.

I do think MN opinion isn't reflective of RL. People take time out for all sorts of reasons. I see you are also planning on a similar gap to me...it's not massive despite what others make out..you could have been on mat leave for two of those years anyway (you said you have two kids right?).

I do sometimes remember the thread in which I was berated for having children at all because by the time they are adults the earth will be uninhabitable! In which case all this worry about future earning prospects etc will be academic anyway I suppose

Not to say that climate change shouldn't be taken seriously, just as women's financial security should be, but that things are sometimes taken to an extra level on mumsnet I suppose!

@MyPetSaurus

I do sometimes remember the thread in which I was berated for having children at all because by the time they are adults the earth will be uninhabitable! In which case all this worry about future earning prospects etc will be academic anyway I suppose

Not to say that climate change shouldn't be taken seriously, just as women's financial security should be, but that things are sometimes taken to an extra level on mumsnet I suppose!

That's a special kinda of twattery .

You're guilty just by giving birth, regardless of what you choose to do after.

@MyPetSaurus

I do sometimes remember the thread in which I was berated for having children at all because by the time they are adults the earth will be uninhabitable! In which case all this worry about future earning prospects etc will be academic anyway I suppose

Not to say that climate change shouldn't be taken seriously, just as women's financial security should be, but that things are sometimes taken to an extra level on mumsnet I suppose!

Absolutely. There are also some keyboard warriors on MN too. I suppose it's also important to remember people who have strong, sometimes divisive (for either camp) ideas about this topic bother to comment. Most people don't care.

I have friends who are ex teachers or social workers and there are agencies you can sign up to, even after significant career breaks, if you’re flexible and need work. Some of the temporary contracts turn into permanent ones.

@Sweak congratulations on your job by the way!

Yes, two kids, and you are right of course. I suppose I'll technically only have been out of employment for three years or so including the first maternity, but four out of the actual office

My DH thinks I'm bonkers for worrying about getting back into the job market at all, particularly as his company just employed someone in a similar position and didn't even think twice.

I can't change it now anyway so I might as well enjoy the time I've got now!

[quote MyPetSaurus]@Sweak congratulations on your job by the way!

Yes, two kids, and you are right of course. I suppose I'll technically only have been out of employment for three years or so including the first maternity, but four out of the actual office

My DH thinks I'm bonkers for worrying about getting back into the job market at all, particularly as his company just employed someone in a similar position and didn't even think twice.

I can't change it now anyway so I might as well enjoy the time I've got now![/quote]
Thank you. Well there you go, DH has given you a real life example, not just opinions on MN

And really do try to enjoy the time. I started worrying about a year ago...but due to the ages of my 3 kids it wasn't financially a good idea to return then...also covid...but I would say my worrying tainted that time and ruined it a bit. Don't let that happen to you!! I had friends telling me it's fine..but I was reading MN!

I was at a talk at St Pauls Girls School recently and they were saying that the main characteristics girls are going to need to survive in the next generation are resilience and adaptability. The working world as we know it is about to change beyond all recognition apparently. Many of the traditional professions are at risk of becoming largely obsolete and the concept of the 9-5 will be a thing of the past. People will increasingly work from home to more flexible schedules. Career breaks will be commonplace and the average graduate will change job at least nine times in their lifetime. There’s will be a massive shift towards people becoming self-employed and far less people will be locked into a single profession for life. Many people will combine multiple part-time jobs, for instance. There was more, I can’t remember, but the main thrust was get ready, because the rate of change that is about to occur is unprecedented.

paloma10 - that creally interesting. I have two part time jobs that fit around my child with SEN but was thinking about looking for one bigger job, but now i think maybe i just need a third job. Diversify a bit. Im unlikely to be made redundant from all 3 at the same time.

@MyPetSaurus

You can be realistic whilst still remaining optimistic. The key is to be flexible and you may have to take something less than ideal at first in order to get your foot back in the door. If you go looking with a strict set of criteria; e.g. only wanting part-time, flexible hours, no weekends etc. then it will be even harder.

Rightly or wrongly, there’s an assumption that working mothers are less committed and want special treatment because they’ve got kids (some do, most don’t). You need to show that isn’t the case for you, even if it causes some short-term inconvenience.

But ultimately, if you’re determined to come back, then you will be able to.

[quote FloconDeNeige]@MyPetSaurus

You can be realistic whilst still remaining optimistic. The key is to be flexible and you may have to take something less than ideal at first in order to get your foot back in the door. If you go looking with a strict set of criteria; e.g. only wanting part-time, flexible hours, no weekends etc. then it will be even harder.

Rightly or wrongly, there’s an assumption that working mothers are less committed and want special treatment because they’ve got kids (some do, most don’t). You need to show that isn’t the case for you, even if it causes some short-term inconvenience.

But ultimately, if you’re determined to come back, then you will be able to.[/quote]
Oh yes I agree with this. I wanted part time but there weren't many roles. I got a full time post instead (thats going to be a shock to the system!)

I'm certain if I was holding out for part time I would not have got anything.

Flexibility and an open mind is important for sure

paloma10
Same here, but it isn't the golden ticket some expect.
I looked into agency teaching after DC and found that in exchange for no set hours, no sick pay, and minimal employment rights, I'd also be expected to provide schools with an experienced, qualified teacher for TA or cover supervisor pay.
I know people who have gone back to teaching via agencies due to several circumstances, not just having children. Most of them were on M6 or the upper pay scale before their break, some had middle leadership experience, a number of them were experienced examiners, and most of them were being paid cover supervisor rates, with some eventually getting M2/3 after they'd been with the agency several years.

I chose to remain in teaching part time and whilst short term it was hard, in the medium to long term it was the best decision for our family. I was grateful that people in agency teaching took the time to share the other side of it.

@paloma10 that’s true, and it’s both a good and bad thing.
As things become more automated performance is measured not by hours worked but by output. With teams even in small to midsize companies based globally more emphasis is put on effective communication and fitting around various working patterns. Also with technology one can always go back home and finish up bits and pieces needed etc.

However with greater independence and sense of ownership comes a greater onus on the employee to direct their career. Gone are there days where you listened to your manager, did what you were told and rose up slowly...

@Treacletoots

Can you not for one second see a viewpoint from someone who doesn't work in the same field as you?

My sector moves incredibly fast. 4 years is a life time and expecting to get a job at the same level at this time, you would be laughed out of an interview.

And yes I would be horrified if my daughter chose to be a SAHM over a career. Your suggestion that there are worse things, is irrelevant because we're not comparing SAHM to being, say a criminal. But rather comparing bring a SAHM to having a fulfilling and equal to her partner's career.

Horrified? Really? I am a working mum in a professional role and have a daughter. I work really long hours. I make good money. My mum gave up work to look after me and my siblings and always emphasised the importance of not abandoning our careers as she did because of the potential we had. I understand why she felt that way. However, though I would like my daughter to be fulfilled and use her talents positively I do see as a feminist that it is actually about her having opportunity and choice to do what makes her most happy. If that is being a SAHM, I would respect her choice. I would only be disappointed for her if it were not a choice. As long as she is fully informed about the consequences - just as I would expect her to be fully informed about the consequences of any career choice - and it was what she wanted to do, why would I not be proud of her and supportive? Life is short and when we die, our memory is more about the connections we make. All that matters at the end of life is how happy we were and how loved we felt.