You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

I’m not sure human rights watch offer unbiased commentary: www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204619004574318344040299638

Having said that, we all have our biases and almost all the analysis here demonstrates that.

So, I’ll offer my opinion which is as valid as any here and probably more informed than most. If a sovereign nation is being attacked by terrorist forces, as it is now, utilising barrages of unguided (several hundred) to overwhelm its defences (iron dome) , that sovereign nation is obliged to protect its citizens and neutralise the threat as a priority. The fact that those batteries are sighted (intentionally) in populous areas makes it more difficult to target (believe it or not targeting is a science). It’s vital to reduce the Sensor to shooter time as much as possible. The mission will be to either neutralise or destroy those batteries. Lethal but proportionate force needs to be applied. Proportionality is important here and It looks very much like the Israelis are doing just that, by in large.

'Proportional' mass murder. It will always be justified with weasel words and legalese.
The Saudis use the same language when they bomb the shit out of Yemen.
The British used the same language when we carried out war crimes in Kenya.
American cops use 'upholding law and order' when they shoot black men, women and children for kicks.
Nothing changes.

All I know is we need to stay out of it

If you stay out of it then you ARE taking a side.

Unless by staying out of it you mean,

-Deny Israel the backing and support from the west and USA?
-Acknowledge responsibility for drafting bullshit agreement in 1967 and 1948 that were never meant to be upheld by international law but was designed to deceive people into being displaced ?

Israel wants you to stay out of it.
Palestinians want you to put pressure on the UN to save their children and ask Israel to abide by international law.

Staying out of it, is deliberately wanting to watch the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

You can stay out of the religious terminology. You can stay out of the historic references. You can ignore the battle between Hamas and Israel..

But you can’t not want international law and human rights to be asserted in the region. Because that’s very relevant to you.

The U.K. shouldn’t really have an option to “stay out of it”. This is the immediate consequence of them sticking their nose in, and the mess that this creates for over 70 years while they funded the ones that supposedly terrorised them into leaving the mandate and burning all bridges with the Palestinians they gave fake agreements to.

The U.K. doesn’t have the right to stay out of its own mess.

@DeepThinkingGirl Thank you.
The British have huge culpability here. Perhaps we should create a homeland for Palestinians in Sussex by forcibly expelling the people who live there already, confiscating their houses, farms and land, massacring those who refuse to leave, then getting American aid to pay for our fighter jets, bombs and nuclear weapons.

I want war crimes to be investigated.
I want international law violations to be investigated.
I want threats to heritage and holy sites and worshippers to be investigated.

If children grow up traumatised and hyper alert in these conditions, where war crimes are normalised and abuse of international law and human rights gaslighted..

Then don’t be so shocked when a proportion of them are aiming to grow up to retaliate in a SIMILAR manner..

And that would be in humane and breaking international law..

And when they behave like terrorists, don’t you dare go blaming religion and religious communities for making them.

What made them, is the deafening silence that facilitated horrific conditions for their upbringing that normalised it all for them.

And we ALL suffer.

www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/palestinian-writer-forcefully-removed-from-home-by-israeli-troops-v6e1821a6

He spoke for the international community to hear him out. And paid the price.

If the international community stays quiet, then what do you expect those in similar situation to him to do ?! Aside from lose trust in international communities for not honouring their voices??

Those who are staying Hamas attacked Israel therefore Israel can do anything g to defend itself are entirely missing the point. If a another nation suddenly attacked Israel out of the blue for no apparent reason then that would be the case.
But Israel has subjugated the Palestinians on the OPT to the point where their lives are unliveable, their condition unbearable. That’s why Hamas exists. So Israel doesn’t get to hold the moral high ground here, and most of the outside work knows that.
Israelis have been almost indoctrinated to the point where they no longer see Palestinians as humans. And that’s on Netanyahu - who essentially has started a war to save his own political neck.
Both sides have been horribly let down by their leaders who are letting short term personal political gains get in the way of what is actually good for the people they claim to represent.

And now the Abraham Accords, less than a year old, are at risk. The only country who really loses out because of that is Israel.

@Adventureswith

Those who are staying Hamas attacked Israel therefore Israel can do anything g to defend itself are entirely missing the point. If a another nation suddenly attacked Israel out of the blue for no apparent reason then that would be the case. But Israel has subjugated the Palestinians on the OPT to the point where their lives are unliveable, their condition unbearable. That’s why Hamas exists. So Israel doesn’t get to hold the moral high ground here, and most of the outside work knows that. Israelis have been almost indoctrinated to the point where they no longer see Palestinians as humans. And that’s on Netanyahu - who essentially has started a war to save his own political neck. Both sides have been horribly let down by their leaders who are letting short term personal political gains get in the way of what is actually good for the people they claim to represent.

You seem to be justifying Hamas' war crimes here.

And you don't understand the complex reasons why Hamas rose up. The corruption of the Palestinian Authority is one reason.

The upcoming elections in the PA are also one reason for Hamas' escalation (and they have absolutely escalated, thousands of missiles have been fired)

@DeepThinkingGirl

All I know is we need to stay out of it

If you stay out of it then you ARE taking a side.

Unless by staying out of it you mean,

-Deny Israel the backing and support from the west and USA?
-Acknowledge responsibility for drafting bullshit agreement in 1967 and 1948 that were never meant to be upheld by international law but was designed to deceive people into being displaced ?

Israel wants you to stay out of it.
Palestinians want you to put pressure on the UN to save their children and ask Israel to abide by international law.

Staying out of it, is deliberately wanting to watch the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

You can stay out of the religious terminology. You can stay out of the historic references. You can ignore the battle between Hamas and Israel..

But you can’t not want international law and human rights to be asserted in the region. Because that’s very relevant to you.

The U.K. shouldn’t really have an option to “stay out of it”. This is the immediate consequence of them sticking their nose in, and the mess that this creates for over 70 years while they funded the ones that supposedly terrorised them into leaving the mandate and burning all bridges with the Palestinians they gave fake agreements to.

The U.K. doesn’t have the right to stay out of its own mess.

That's a total misunderstanding of how Israel came into being. Yes, the British made promises to both Jews and Arabs. But they didn't "create" the mess the way they did, for example, in India.

Neither Britain nor the UN "gave" Israel to anyone. The UN agreed on a partition plan, the Palestinians rejected it as they thought they would win the civil war supported by invasion from five surrounding Arab states. They didn't. It was a nasty civil war with ethnic cleansing and forced displacement on both sides (that's the crux of the issue in Sheikh Jarrah - Jews were ethnically cleansed from areas that the Arabs held in 1948) . By 1948, it was sadly going to be one side or the other.

@DeepThinkingGirl so would you rather a world war? Cause that’s what will happen if we get involved. Are you also advocating we get involved with the genocide happening in China? Or do you realise any interference in that situation would cause a war too?

@Jente away and have a sleep love, you’ve clearly been on the drink

@Oyvavoy,

'And you don't understand the complex reasons why Hamas rose up. The corruption of the Palestinian Authority is one reason.'

This is absolutely correct.

Another big reason is that Hamas is backed by Iran. They cleverly coupled real help for Palestinians on the ground with an anti Israeli agenda. The palestinians voted them in as they were providing food and medical care on the ground, and they got a jihad against Israel.

Hamas came out of Arafat's failure to engage with Israel when there was a real hope of a two state solution.

@DeepThinkingGirl so would you rather a world war? Cause that’s what will happen if we get involved. Are you also advocating we get involved with the genocide happening in China? Or do you realise any interference in that situation would cause a war too?

Oh I recognise this technique.

First catastrophising the consequence of action to confuse everyone into inaction.

And then whataboutery.

In reality everyone else knows it’s much simpler and hopefully will clock on to all this manipulative propaganda.

I don't think anyone here is advocating military intervention? Right?

When people say get involved, they mean in other ways?

@DeepThinkingGirl it’s not catastrophising - though you claiming it is is also a tactic to completely dismiss someone else’s view.

Think it through rationally. Israel isn’t going to leave Palestinians alone because the world asks nicely or applies sanctions. We’ve seen repeatedly neither of those routes work. For anything to be done to help the Palestinians, there would need to be a physical intervention. What do you think would happen if soldiers descended on Israel to help the Palestinians? Do you think Israel is going to sit there and not retaliate or prevent foreign troops from entering their country? Do you think they’re going to nod their heads and go “ahhh, maybe we were being unreasonable”? Or do you think they’re going to retaliate with their own military and weapons?

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Oyvavoy,

'And you don't understand the complex reasons why Hamas rose up. The corruption of the Palestinian Authority is one reason.'

This is absolutely correct.

Another big reason is that Hamas is backed by Iran. They cleverly coupled real help for Palestinians on the ground with an anti Israeli agenda. The palestinians voted them in as they were providing food and medical care on the ground, and they got a jihad against Israel.

Hamas came out of Arafat's failure to engage with Israel when there was a real hope of a two state solution.[/quote]
Yep. And Israel in the 80s also encouraged Hamas as a counter force to the PLO at the time. And then seriously paid the price of that mistake in the 90s when Hamas managed to derail the peace process with bombings (of innocent civilians). Interesting how the Hamas excusers seem to forget just how violent and murderous they really are (to their own people too).

ConfusedAdultFemale

Palestine and Palestinians have some of the most academic and intellectual people I know. The refugee camps I grew up around produced genius children, some of which broke world records and were admitted to universities at very young ages.

Do you know why? Because many Palestinians believe that educating their kids is a way to ensure their kids can one day use knowledge to make their lives better . It’s survival . It’s been survival for generations.

So why would “getting involved” not take into account what the intellectual representatives of Palestine would have to say.

Why would intervention mean imposing your will at the people.

Absolutely NOBODY asked for military intervention. What people are calling for us for their voices to be acknowledged and for international law to be upheld.

If voices of peaceful civilian protestors trumps that of all the noise created by the military mess, then perhaps, only perhaps, emotionally volatile youth would find a healthy outlet and it would delegitimise Hamas.

The request is pretty simple, Palestinian are asking for the world to stop seeing them as legitimate collateral damage to this dispute. To put boundaries on the conflict and to hold all parties accountable to abide by international law through investigating any violations and occupying settlements..

What do you think would happen if soldiers descended on Israel to help the Palestinians? Do you think Israel is going to sit there and not retaliate or prevent foreign troops from entering their country?

Easy Jerusalem is not their country.

"Do you know why? Because many Palestinians believe that educating their kids is a way to ensure their kids can one day use knowledge to make their lives better . It’s survival . It’s been survival for generations."

@DeepThinkingGirl
That's not quite true. The provision of UNRWA schools in the camps has probably been a key component in increasing educational standards among Palestinians. Hasn't helped Palestinian refugees in Lebanon though where there is a true apartheid against the Palestinians (they aren't even allowed to own property despite having lived there for generations)

@DeepThinkingGirl

What do you think would happen if soldiers descended on Israel to help the Palestinians? Do you think Israel is going to sit there and not retaliate or prevent foreign troops from entering their country?

Easy Jerusalem is not their country.

It kind of is. You might not like it or approve of it or even recognise it but East Jerusalem was annexed and full Israeli sovereignty and Israeli civil law applies there. That's the de facto situation. And why the PA elections were cancelled (and also why Hamas is going crazy)

A point I would like to also point out is that does anyone not think it strange that Benjamin Netanyahu was on his way out by the sounds of it and suddenly he started showing his hand of attacking Palestine and now it seems he will be staying in power much longer. Seems to be this
"war" was very political on his part. A means for him to gain support from his national parties to stay in power.

Also to those who mentioned that some of the posters have biased views on the Palestinian side due to their personal circumstances and it is not relevant to all the Israelis etc.
If I remember correctly, (can't be bothered to trawl all the thread again so forgive me if ive got the wrong poster) but did not @Acidburn mention that she had a few things happen to her by some Palestinians that seems to shape how she feels about the majority. As I am sure happened to people on either side.
Would like to just reiterate that just because you come across a certain few bad eggs, does not mean the whole side is like that on either side.
I have seen and heard alot of bad things from some Israelis, yet I would never say the rest of the innocent civilians are deserving of getting hurt.
Sadly read an article about 2 women from either side recalling living in fear with their children. This only shows you what the poor civilians are dealing with on a daily basis due to this in power.
Imagine not knowing whether you or your loved one will be standing there in the next second. What kind of a life is that?
There is a few posters who seem to agree that Palestine has it rough but they then throw in a "but this, but that". Reminds me of the children getting reprimanded and the "but she did it first, he did this too"

To the poster saying terrorists hiding with civilians, what else should they do? How about not fire???
Find some other way. Imagine telling someone's loved ones, I just stabbed your husband/ wife, mother/ brother because s/he happened to be standing near a serial killer. Would that be ok?

@Lottie2shoes Hamas are launching missiles towards Israeli civilians. Do you comprehend that? If tomorrow France will launch missiles towards UK - do you think UK will not answer? Are you actually serious?

@DeepThinkingGirl nothing you’ve said relates to my post at all so I’m going to assume you’re conflating emotion with logic and disengage from discussion with you. At the end of the day both Palestine and Israel deserve to live in peace, but it’s not going to be achieved with the world sticking their oar in. As has been proven consistently throughout history.