You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

Perhaps the one thing that might come out of this escalation ( if it doesn't lead to all out war) is to highlight the inequalities and awful conditions in the OPT for ordinary people and encourage donations for the charities like Save the Children who are trying to make life more bearable for the Palestinian civilians who are suffering as a result of conflict.

I'm so glad I've come across this thread. I'm so happy that majority of the views are in favour of human rights (obviously). There's a systematic ethnic cleansing taking place for decades now. Our politicians, media are afraid to speak which is disturbing. If it was the other way round, the whole world do anything in their power to send troops, put in sanctions but when it's Palestine it's all 🤐 look the other way.

@DeepThinkingGirl agree with 99% of what you say. Am a little confused on why you think Jews will follow something in the Quran though? Am I misunderstanding you.

I think 99% of people think civilians and especially children should not be victims of this awful war. and that both Israel and Hamas should take responsibility for the atrocities they have carried out.

@IconUcon

'Yet i have yet to see single post on here condemning Hamas for their actions '

Here you go then - of COURSE Hamas should not be attacking Israeli towns with rockets. Anymore than Israeli should be destroying buildings and killing civilians in Palestinian territories.

I have condemned in all my posts so far. I have said both sides are to blame. That by definition includes Hamas I believe.
I have also said time and again, that it is the poor civilians on either side that bear the brunt. But in case it was not clear enough.. " I wholeheartedly condemn Hamas for killing and terrorising innocent civilians".

@IconUcon sadly the money they give save the children never reach the people of the OPT. OPT already get more aid than any other group per capita. They are siphoned off by Hamas leaders either to build their houses or to buy more rockets.

On this forum you can never point out that it is always Hamas who starts the violence and yet Israel is always the aggressor.

And just in case you still believe every thing you read ...

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158453704118403&id=746278402

[quote Bells3032]@DeepThinkingGirl agree with 99% of what you say. Am a little confused on why you think Jews will follow something in the Quran though? Am I misunderstanding you.

I think 99% of people think civilians and especially children should not be victims of this awful war. and that both Israel and Hamas should take responsibility for the atrocities they have carried out.[/quote]
I was wondering the same thing.

'@IconUcon sadly the money they give save the children never reach the people of the OPT. OPT already get more aid than any other group per capita. They are siphoned off by Hamas leaders either to build their houses or to buy more rockets.'

STC along with other charities are on the ground working in OPT - although Israel and their supporters like to perpetuate the myth that no aid actually gets to the people, it does. You can find the details of the work NGO's are doing on the ground IN OPT and WITH the people who need aid on their websites and in their annual reports.
That's the best way to disprove the ' all aid money just goes to pay for rockets to attack Israel' myth.

@Diemme thank you for bringing this. Thank you for standing with Israel too.

@Diemme 'And just in case you still believe every thing you read ...

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158453704118403&id=746278402'

Are you aware that this is fake? And a fake from over a year ago at that? Or is that your point???

On this forum you can never point out that it is always Hamas who starts the violence and yet Israel is always the aggressor

Well, you could, but it wouldn't be true. I'd say that the ongoing displacement of people from their homes and harrassment by settlers and military at checkpoint, and attacking peaceful gathers, is pretty aggressive.
But then I've seen how Palestinians seem to be considered somewhow less than human so any response to this persecution is considered to be aggression.

Someone mentioned previously that Jewish people have always lived in the region. Of course they have, alongside Christians and Muslims.
That's got nothing to do with the huge influx of settlers from Eastern Europe, Russia etc that have occurred over the last few decades.

[quote IconUcon]@Diemme 'And just in case you still believe every thing you read ...

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158453704118403&id=746278402'

Are you aware that this is fake? And a fake from over a year ago at that? Or is that your point???[/quote]
Please read the comments below before sharing

This is a summation of the situation for 2020 from Amnesty International. They aren't anti-semites either. They called out the UK over NI back in the day. They have information on conflicts and humanitarian issues all over the world - Mynamar, Colombia, Syria.

'Israel continued to impose institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians living under its rule in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). It displaced hundreds of Palestinians in Israel and the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as a result of home demolitions and imposition of other coercive measures. Israeli forces continued to use excessive force during law enforcement activities in Israel and the OPT. Israeli forces killed 31 Palestinians, including nine children, in the OPT; many were unlawfully killed while posing no imminent threat to life. Israel maintained its illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip, subjecting its residents to collective punishment and deepening the humanitarian crisis there. It also continued to restrict freedom of movement of Palestinians in the OPT through checkpoints and roadblocks. The Israeli authorities arbitrarily detained in Israel thousands of Palestinians from the OPT, holding hundreds in administrative detention without charge or trial. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, including children, were committed with impunity. The authorities used a range of measures to target human rights defenders, journalists and others who criticized Israel’s continuing occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Syrian Golan Heights. Violence against women persisted, especially against Palestinian citizens of Israel. The authorities denied asylum-seekers access to a fair or prompt refugee status determination process. Conscientious objectors to military service were imprisoned.'

All these lands where under by the Ottoman Empire for atleast 600 years, before them they belonged to Fatimid caliphate, Abbasid, so technically they were never under any Jewish control, ever!
Jews were a minority in the holy land up to the beginning of the twentieth century, and that’s when it all went wrong. Ottoman Empire was on its last legs, they gave more control to prominent families in what is now known as Lebanon and Syria, these families sold lands belonging to Palestinians to European Jews, as well as to the British mandate , who eventually sold these lands to Jewish settlers too,
So you have two nations clashing on lands that are historically belonging to a group for at least a thousand years, with proof of ownership from an empire that doesn’t exist any more.
and on the other side you have people who have bought lands with the blessing of the British mandate, how can you fix this?
I’ve seen that video circulating with the Palestinian woman trying to reason with the Jewish man . Heart breaking! . She was saying to him , you are stealing my house, and he says if I don’t steal it someone else will!

So many people have died, there is no excuse to what is happening to Palestinians.

If you read that from Amnesty you get a sense of why some people are turning to violence.

There is no roadmap to peace anymore.

The way many Israelis see it: they gave peace a chance in the 1990s, offered most of the territories back, a Palestinian state, and in return there were suicide bombings in Israeli cities and then eventually the Second Intifada. The lesson they take is that negotiating signals weakness and invites attacks.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is the right perspective, but this is the narrative that Likud especially has pushed for years to delegitimise the entire idea of a negotiated peace.

At the same time, the Palestinians do not want to agree to whatever minor things Israel might be willing to give them, because they know this will just make their current situation permanent and that is not acceptable.

So there is no roadmap, nothing to work towards. There is only, as @DeepThinkingGirl reminds us, the effort to at least minimise the atrocities when fighting does break out. But fighting will keep breaking out as long as the conflict continues.

I think the only thing that would change things is if the world put enough pressure on the US to change its support of Israel, but that is not going to happen. Not even the Arab states are pressuring the US to change their policy.

@Bells3032

Most of my posts literally condemned Hamas smh

Saudi and the UAE are normalising relations with Israel now. Qater is much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause but that tends to get it in trouble with it's larger neighbour.
Netanyahu and Likud are have no interest in peace whatsoever.
I really don't see how things will change any time soon, it feels hopeless.

'total, long-term quiet' that's what Israel has just vowed to bring to OPT and I don't think they mean an olive branch and end to their illegal occupation, unfortunately.

DeepThinkingGirl agree with 99% of what you say. Am a little confused on why you think Jews will follow something in the Quran though? Am I misunderstanding you.

The reason I quoted form the Quran is because it’s the only one out of the three Abraham scripts I understand and have any business in quoting, else i feel it’s disrespectful to be using someone else’s script to score points in arguments without totally understanding the depth of it. It’s disingenuous to be a literalist in a context you don’t understand.

The verse I quoted was the Quran narrating the speach of God stating that he had ordained on the children of Israel (children and descendants of prophet King David) that they shall not kill someone without a fault of their else it’s like they killed all of humanity. This is a well known instruction in the Jewish faith , and I have verified with Jewish sources for that to be the case. Two thirds of the Quraan seek to confirm stories and teachings of the bible and the Torah, because we claim to be worshipping the same god but that the prophet was sent down to complete the lifestyle rulings but not actually change any of the basic principles and understanding of God as it was taught by Moses and Jesus. It’s their to confirm their message and to be compared and challenged against the other Abrahamic scripts as being an extension of it.

The point I was trying to make is to point out to everyone here who is bringing religion into this and feeling a sense of misguided loyalty due to religious identity, that this isn’t a religious conflict, when it comes to targeting civilians or killing anyone for no reason but transgression this is a matter that all 3 Abraham if faiths agree on. Because that’s a major sin as seen by God, which Jews and Muslims have no disagreement on who he is. And our lifestyle choices are very similar whixh is why practicing communities of both faiths assimilate quite well in our communities. And so what’s happening now isn’t a religious conflict.. it’s a political one, but using religion to manipulate.

So anyone polarising the debate by making it a difference of religious perspective have their own agenda to swerve international opinion into their victim hood, and to other their opponents and dehumanise them.

Holding Israel accountable for going against something clearly identified as wrong in the Torah is NOT antisemetic. Because that’s what Jews are doing.. practicing Jews don’t agree with this. It has nothing to do with the Jewish identity.

Therefore we can take religion out of this and focus on the actual fact this is a matter of human rights issues being violated which is a moral code of justice that requires no religion to be able to see.

Religion isn’t a tool for power or manipulation. The actual religious scripts say more or less the same things, what’s different is that everyone is misusing them in the same way.. and people who have exposure and sympathy to a particular faith over the other are choosing to excuse one misinterpretation over the other.

What’s this non sense about “god gave us this land 5000 years ago”. That’s the most shockingly entitled non self aware statement I have ever seen. And drives me mad when my family have been displaced from Haifa since 1948 that actually this is the logical argument for many...

I could sympathize that someone traumatised desperately wanting to use that argument to sort out their basic rights but to actually hold on to this to impose on someone else’s rights after they reach safety..

I excuse desperation. I have compassion for humans in trouble even if it came at the cost of my grandad and his mum and my mum and my kids.. but that’s because I believe this life is to test my patience and that god has a better plan for us in the afterlife ...

But to transgress on someone else’s rights using Gods words..

Well that’s not Allahs words. That’s not Hashems words. That’s not Jehovah’s words. That’s not Jesus’s words.

That’s just your selfish entitled aggressive self talking. So rein it in my fellow of faith.

And let’s drop religion out of the discussion because we are all aware it’s being used to manipulate and transgress not for it’s designed purpose..

@MaxNormal

Saudi and the UAE are normalising relations with Israel now. Qater is much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause but that tends to get it in trouble with it's larger neighbour. Netanyahu and Likud are have no interest in peace whatsoever. I really don't see how things will change any time soon, it feels hopeless.

They lifted the blockade. Not that we care about Saudi or the UAE much and haven't missed them one bit during that period. Horrible places with draconian laws. Qatar will always survive and make its own way in the world. It's a good place to be and I salute the offer of a safe home given to the people of Palestine who have been mercilessly torn from their home.

People should be careful how the process/deal with vary partisan posts, from both sides. To put some of our context on this, for those of us old enough to remember, Prime Minister Ted Heath after Bloody Sunday: " We are fighting not only a military war but a propaganda war.”

Both sides will be at this.

@DeepThinkingGirl ahhhh ok. I understand. That particular statement is referring to giving people the death penalty though. There are some statements in the Torah about warfare which includes not attacking civilians which could be used but there are also statements about not leaving one person alive so it's a bit contradictory on the subject.

Either way Israel does not adhere strictly to halacha. Else they'd be executing everyone who committed adultery and/or were homosexual. And a country that has one of the biggest pride parades in the world deff does not do that

All three Abrahamic texts have contradictory instructions about targeting innocent people.

Fundamentalists in the US cite the Bible to justify all sorts of hateful things while their opponents cite Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.
Al Qaeda cites certain Quranic verses to justify its violence, Islamic scholars cite other verses to say why this is wrong.

I agree completely with trying to leave religion out of this. People will just use the bits they like to justify their own hate and violence.