You just cannot talk about Palestine on this forum

[Faffandahalf]

Why has the last thread been taken down with a ‘goady op’ message?
What’s so goady about asking why we can’t criticise the actions of Israel?
Don’t even give a shit this is a TAAT and will get zapped.

Palestine exists. Ethnic cleansing is happening. And every single thread gets taken down.

Only one person on that thread shouted anti semitism. Every one else was mostly in agreement about what is happening and it still gets zapped.

I’ll once again direct people to friends of al Aqsa on Instagram and Twitter in the hopes people see this and would like some real information.

Israel is an occupying oppressor committing genocide and the Palestinians are an oppressed people. There is no comparison in the force power and might of these two groups esp when one has the backing and funding of the US.

Seriously pissed at MN for refusing to allow truths to be told about the situation

@TheReluctantPhoenix

I am Jewish but even I find it hard to put this into a meaningful historical perspective. There are many who know far far more than I do. However, most are clearly biased one way or another.

The way Israel have behaved recently is awful BUT I would challenge anyone to come up with a roadmap for Israel that would not either bc seen as apartheid or put its citizens in harms way.

Firstly, most ‘Palestinians’ did not originally come from modern Israel but Jordan. The majority of Palestine was on the Jordanian side. Strangely, despite the Jordanians keeping their Palestinians in refugee camps in appalling conditions (those they have not expelled), there is no international protest nor any desire of Palestinians to return to Jordan.

A second fact is that the kleptocracy run by Yasser Arafat was given an excellent chance for a two state solution. The Palestinians were offered 90% of what they wanted. Arafat turning this down (probably because he found it easier to steal his people’s money under occupation) allowed Hamas to be elected.

Hamas’s averred aim is the destruction of the state of Israel. Would we negotiate with a power who wanted to, with powerful allies, destroy us.

Israel is always in a state of fear. They are a tiny country and, although they are sponsored by the US, and militarily powerful, they know it is a matter of time before an Arab country goes nuclear. And, given their tiny geographical size, that is terrifying for them.

Israel also has a demographic problem. The Jews will inevitably, over time, become outnumbered by Moslems. So, does the Jewish state remain entirely democratic and become a Moslem state?!

There are many religious nutters on both sides of this argument and also international players continually stirring the pot. I feel sorry for all who live in that area.

The State of Israel does exist, however and, whilst I agree criticising its actions is not anti-Semitic, I do think saying it does not have the right to exist does cross that line.

This.

I'd like to reiterate I detest Hamas. I'm only commenting on how the news is reported

@Imonlyhumanafterall2021. last time an Israeli leader came to an agreement with a Palestinian leader - the Oslo Accords of 1993 and 1995 - the Israeli leader was assassinated - by an Israeli. The Palestinians aren’t the only ones who don’t stick to agreements.

Meanwhile in the last 36 hours Hamas showered Israel with 900 bombs. Israeli children are in bomb shelters terrified. The Israeli government is not beyond criticism but none of us who don't live in Israel can hope to understand what it must be like to live in an area surrounded by nations who hate you and want you dead. I stand with Israel.

It's telling how the less pleasant posts on here are anti Palestinian. It sometimes feels like people genuinely don't think they matter as much as other humans. In a time when cancelation of people and groups is rife, history is cancelled and rewritten, how is the sneering and apartheid of a nation be OK? It's actually rather disgusting.

[quote CounsellorTroi]@Imonlyhumanafterall2021. last time an Israeli leader came to an agreement with a Palestinian leader - the Oslo Accords of 1993 and 1995 - the Israeli leader was assassinated - by an Israeli. The Palestinians aren’t the only ones who don’t stick to agreements.[/quote]
Indeed.

As I said neither side are correct. They both have entrenched positions. If only they could both sit down and agree to stop killing for the sake of both sides. It is difficult to see that ever happening at present. Very sad.

NI different but some similarities in entrenched positions eventually sat down and drew up an agreement. Most keep to it with sadly some terrorist organisations rising their heads from time to time. Both 'sides' in NI don't come out well. Again many innocents on both sides died. Very sad.

I agree whole heartedly. You can be anti-zionist without being antisemitic. Zionism is a political movement, not a religion. I have met anti-zionist Israelis - admittedly not many of them.

The whole world cried when Notra Dame burnt down, where were they for Al Aqsa mosque? Watching videos of Israelis cheering outside as it burned. Its considerably older too?

The Jews have been in the land area for thousands of years. It is their religious holy land.

They have been a minority in the land for past 2000 years (maybe more) but we’re vastly outnumber by Palestinians in late 19th century.

It is also the religious land of Christians and Muslims - Jerusalem is the third most holy place in Islam after Mecca and Medina.

I do not believe that Jewish Israelis have any right to claim any religiously-endowed preferential access to Palestine and Jerusalem.

This is my roadmap. Get rid of Netanyahu, go back to the drawing board.

Admit that there has been wrongdoing. This gives closure and validates experiences on both sides.

Pledge for freedom for all. Pay for Palestinian and Jewish diaspora to come home.

Britain and The USA to pay reparations.

All Jews, Christians and Muslims in the country to live as equals. No segregation, no apartheid. You'd have a secular government or one that is made up of Jews Christians and Muslims.
Ensure all residents have the right to own property, to access resources and education and to feel secure.

Capital Jerusalem. Morph the flags.

So set aside the Jihadis- a term I hate because Palestinians and Jihadis are not the same thing.

@grantoderek

It's telling how the less pleasant posts on here are anti Palestinian. It sometimes feels like people genuinely don't think they matter as much as other humans. In a time when cancelation of people and groups is rife, history is cancelled and rewritten, how is the sneering and apartheid of a nation be OK? It's actually rather disgusting.

Both sides matter. Neither come out well.

There are some that are pro Israel and some pro Palestinian. I imagine when seeing the news "in the last 36 hours Hamas showered Israel with 900 bombs". It is understandable that Israeli children are in bomb shelters terrified. Meanwhile Palestinian children are in their country also terrified. No one is winning, innocents are dying. But just criticising Israel and ignoring the 900 bombs or criticising Palestine and ignoring the killing of children helps at all.

@Diemme Do the Palestinian children have the luxury of a bomb shelter? How many Israeli children have died? 0? Unlike the 10 Palestinian children killed yesterday.

@Diemme
No child should be terrified- They did not ask to be born into this mess.

Please remember there are children on both sides here, all traumatised.

The bombs were a reaction- I totally condemn this act, but it was a reaction. Let's not give Hamas ammunition to do this.

piddocktrumperiness

Heart cries for your sweetheart grandma.
My British Palestinian grandad was so happy when he managed to smuggle himself into Haifa to see his house in Haifa, that he was displaced from. He recognised the tree he played around. He watched from a distance, just that last bit of closure.

I grew up around many Palestinian refugees who still held on to the keys, lived all their life in hope. It sounds like a fantasy, but when you live it you realise that these were defining moments for generations to come filled with trauma and anticipation. The Impact it has on people’s mental health and the exploitation they continued to suffer as a result of not having a protected identity.

This defined my grandads mothers life, his life, my mothers life and mine.. it dispersed his siblings, his mother died before she could find where her sister was. Grandads brother died in a far away country before he could see him. Their nephews and nieces are all dispersed. All holding on to the last memories they shared.. that of having no choice about losing the lifestyle that was build for them for decades and centuries to that of an undignified struggle for existence.

And yet, we have to listen to people chanting that “Palestinians never really lived there”.

Gaslighting is an argument for those that have no real legitimate answer.

'Meanwhile in the last 36 hours Hamas showered Israel with 900 bombs. Israeli children are in bomb shelters terrified.'

Yes, they have. Most of which have been intercepted by the defence system, and at least the Israeli children have bomb shelters and aren't hiding in wardrobes.

Israel just brought down two tower blocks and have killed 40 something civilians including at least 9 kids. They bombing the hell out of Gaza. Hamas are chucking more rockets back as buildings are destroyed.
Hamas are a terrorist grp, Israel are attacking civilians in retaliation.
is that proportionate?
I'm sure there would have been plenty of people who would have supported the British government bombing the hell out of Catholic areas in Belfast during the Troubles every time a soldier was shot at or a bomb went off in England but luckily for the NI people that didn't happen.

On the hunt - there are lots of tunnels that Hamas have built over the last 15 years that would be ideal for shelters - unfortunately they are used for military purposes only, a good example of how interested they are in keeping their population safe.

@Imonlyhumanafterall2021 you said "No one is winning" ... actually someone is winning. The Israeli state is taking more and more land over time.

However, if the balance of power does change (and it surely will), then I think Israel can know what to expect. The way is currently framed it seems like a fight to the death.

The impact of this will go on for generations into the future. My Grandfather fought in Kenya, my uncle in NI, my cousin was stationed in Iraq. Luckily they all left unharmed physically, and were largely able to put that in the past. Not so easy for the people living there. Must be just awful for both side, and the longer it does on the more entrenched they become.

@Imonlyhumanafterall2021
Actually you do not come out looking good either.
Your previous post comes out as the most islamophobic bile seen on this thread so far.
You started off nicely, both sides do not look good etc. But then there was " jihad", " terrorism", "children as shields" , " not Muslim country", only the Israelis "holy land" etc etc.
One thing I'd like to clarify is that this is also the muslims holy land. Also Palestinians and well as the Israelis have a right to live safely, freely and happily in their homelands without either side terrorising them, kicking them out of their homes.
As mentioned above, there have been MANY Jewish people who have stood by and tried to fight for their fellow Muslim brothers to live there.
It is not a case of Muslims vs Jews. There are Christian Palestinians also as im sure other religions.
Both sides have been wrong with unfortunately it seems to always be the civilians who bear the brunt.
As for the " it always belonged to the Jews and the facts peddled with this statement". I have seen " facts" from both with contrasting results.

I personally would like to see both parties living side by side and I know that is over simplifying things but kicking each other out of their own country and ancestral homes is never the right answer.

@IconUcon so it's ok to blast people with rockets as long as they have shelters. Hamas are not a terrorist in Gaza...they are the government. Admittedly whether they are democratically elected is debatable (technically they were but in reality they aren't). So it's both governments attacking the other sides civilians. Israel just invests more in their citizen's safety than Hamas does.

Yet i have yet to see single post on here condemning Hamas for their actions including siphoning off billions in aid for their own pleasure

Not all Israelis have bomb shelters. My niece and nephews were hiding in their bathroom when Jerusalem was targeted by Hamas rockets.

@Imonlyhumanafterall2021
By the way your name is very apt as your next post seems to be more in line with mine as in its hard on both sides and scary for all involved

Israel and Hamas need to both be told to respect human rights at peace and in war.

But Israel is the bigger power. They have accurate weapons , which they used yesterday to destroy civilian tower block.

I think the Jews should be the first to condemn this:

“That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life—unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land—it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.” - Quran

If the Jewish state is not following Jewish laws, then surely condemning its actions bears no impact on the actual faith.

Unless, Palestinians are not considered part of humanity.

Hamas, has multiple super powers condemning them. Including Saudi Arabia.

Some think Hamas are retaliating, some people Israel are retaliating. History and media are to blame for that confusion.

In reality I don’t care who thinks what, this is all a distraction. What matter is, who is violating human rights disproportionately and why is the world watching ?! They can both be held accountable. And should be.

The aim isn’t necessarily to make peace with history. The idea is to enforce human rights in whatever conflict arises..

Killing children and civilians deliberately should never be anyone’s answer.

It’s an insult to our era that this has to be spelt out

[quote Lottie2shoes]@Imonlyhumanafterall2021
Actually you do not come out looking good either.
Your previous post comes out as the most islamophobic bile seen on this thread so far.
You started off nicely, both sides do not look good etc. But then there was " jihad", " terrorism", "children as shields" , " not Muslim country", only the Israelis "holy land" etc etc.
One thing I'd like to clarify is that this is also the muslims holy land. Also Palestinians and well as the Israelis have a right to live safely, freely and happily in their homelands without either side terrorising them, kicking them out of their homes.
As mentioned above, there have been MANY Jewish people who have stood by and tried to fight for their fellow Muslim brothers to live there.
It is not a case of Muslims vs Jews. There are Christian Palestinians also as im sure other religions.
Both sides have been wrong with unfortunately it seems to always be the civilians who bear the brunt.
As for the " it always belonged to the Jews and the facts peddled with this statement". I have seen " facts" from both with contrasting results.

I personally would like to see both parties living side by side and I know that is over simplifying things but kicking each other out of their own country and ancestral homes is never the right answer.[/quote]
Thank you Lottie for your response. I found that post deeply upsetting and offensive.

'Yet i have yet to see single post on here condemning Hamas for their actions '

Here you go then - of COURSE Hamas should not be attacking Israeli towns with rockets. Anymore than Israeli should be destroying buildings and killing civilians in Palestinian territories.

@IconUcon thank you