Bullying and mumsnet

[hattiecattie]

I'm a long time lurker since I had my DD 8 years ago. I have noticed since the first day I joined mumsnet that there is a huge bullying culture here that takes place. I have witnessed so many pile ons happen to desperate people asking for help. Even if you don't agree with someone, there's no need to be cruel.

I wonder if there's a way that MNHQ can challenge this? Shut down bullying on this site as soon as it occurs.

There definitely is a bullying culture here.
The OP of a post nearly always gets a horrible time from others who twist their words and accuse them of all kinds.
There will be a few who come on here to justify their behaviour but it's disgusting whichever way you want to portray it.

I actually need to ask a question about something, but I'm very reluctant to do so because I know I'm going to have to word it extremely carefully and ensure all my bases are covered

It's certainly tiresome and annoying to have to do this just some smart arse doesn't start having a go.

@MiaMarshmallows

There definitely is a bullying culture here. The OP of a post nearly always gets a horrible time from others who twist their words and accuse them of all kinds. There will be a few who come on here to justify their behaviour but it's disgusting whichever way you want to portray it.

This is just factual - it's so true.

The worst part is how so many folk feel forced to write an incredibly long carefully worded OP just to avoid the kangaroo court legal wannabe pedants waiting to find an inconsistency or something to beat the OP over the head with.

@Branleuse

I dont think its bullying as its not a sustained harrassment of one person, but I do think toxic pile-ons are frequent and unkind. people digging for more information they can use against the OP. You could see it as peoples arse getting handed to them, but I think it crosses into trolling far too much. I say that, but I dont want the site to be overly moderated either. The report function is really good and mumsnet are quick to check and delete things that cross the line, and people do keep coming back for more, so.......

I know though, after several years here, that there are things that I just could not post for advice on, that I wish I could, because I couldnt handle my life picked apart or the character assasination that could potentially ensue.

I am not sure its any different on any other large message boards either though. Ive been on a few over the years, and the ones that are too nice and supportive get boring too, so part of what I dislike about mumsnet is also what keeps people coming back

Snap. My DH drinks too much. He is absolutely not an alcoholic and it doesn't affect our family life, nor does he become unpleasant in any way when he's drunk. It really, really irritates me though. Sometimes I want to post about it on here, but I just know that I'll get: how can you be sure he won't still be over the limit, he's probably drinking much more than he's letting on, what if something happens to the kids overnight, my father was an alcoholic and it was awful, he will only get worse, do you want this as a role model for your children, posters always say their useless partner is a great dad but he's not, have some respect, get out while the kids are small, and then asking me why I put up with any number of scenarios that they imagine happen, but I've given no suggestion that they do. He also cheated on me once, very early on in the relationship. I forgave him and truly believe he will never do it again unless our marriage is on the rocks already (he knows it would be the end of our relationship). You know how that would be received on here... Other things I don't post about include anything related to my weight (I asked for advice on running when overweight once and got really nasty replies from one poster about how I was twice the weight I should be and no wonder my knees hurt. Erm, yeah, why do you think I want to take up running?, anything about teaching and workload, anything about our finances (2 kids and a mortgage but no savings).

I find it quite liberating to just not post about certain things. There is no reason why you would need to seek other people's opinions or validation on sensitive issues in your life, it's entirely optional. I've also come to realise that a lot of things that are standard on here lead to massive eye rolls irl.... I wish I had come to all these conclusions sooner though, as I often can't help thinking about the MN reaction or the MN view of certain situations.

@hattiecattie

I'm a long time lurker since I had my DD 8 years ago. I have noticed since the first day I joined mumsnet that there is a huge bullying culture here that takes place. I have witnessed so many pile ons happen to desperate people asking for help. Even if you don't agree with someone, there's no need to be cruel.

I wonder if there's a way that MNHQ can challenge this? Shut down bullying on this site as soon as it occurs.

I completely agree. 100000000x OP.

I've just had to have a thread deleted because of it. MNHQ just let it happen (although thankfully this time they did delete the thread).

And however carefully you write a post there will always be someone who comes along and picks something out to beat you down with. I am trying to reduce my time posting here as it is a very unpleasant place to be a lot of the time.

Well said @Ginuwine 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@sst1234

Is this one of those ‘be kind’ type things. Where people don’t like being challenged. More often than not, someone asks if they are being unreasonable, everyone tells them they are and they do not accept it and then accuse everyone of a pile on.

That's not what OP is referring to and you know it

@RevolvingPivot

I have an issue I need help with. I've posted lots about it over the years under a different name.

When ever I mention it I get:
Cool story bro. Yes that happened. Are you on glue. Just because people can't relate they think I'm making it up. To be honest I'd probably think the same. So I can't post about it.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like a totally objective opinion. I may even have knowledge in that area?? 🤷🏼‍♀️

A lot of it is people posting the same rude unpleasant stock phrases - why come on a thread to say something pointless?
Are you on glue? being one.

A couple I particularly dislike are
'And you married him because..?.'
And you had children with him because...?'
and
'And you are staying with him because ....?'

It shows such a complete and utter ignorance of the dynamic when you are in an abusive relationship. I thought most thinking people had got past the 'why don't you just leave' idiocy.

Also the passive aggressive..
'So what happened when you told him to ....(insert insult or action the OP clearly hasn't taken) - what is the point - you know the poster hasn't done this so why put an unhelpful PA question ?

There are nice helpful people on here but there are also some extremely nasty ones - and sadly I think the nasty ones are staring to outnumber the nice. (the baby name thread being an example - some vile posts on there)

I agree and it stops me posting quite often. I've gone to start threads and then haven't bothered as I hate arguing and I just know there will be someone waiting to pick apart what i've said. But, for the most part, for every nasty viper, there's a 100 others who are delightful and lovely.

I agree with you OP. I don't think it's the whole of MN at all, but there are indeed quite a few on here who love a pile on. It can either be to an OP or somebody responding to a post, but it's the way some people respond, they can be so snipey. I totally get that people don't always agree, but you can make your point and disagree politely without getting mardy and being needlessly rude. That is what I find really grates my cheese on here. Some people almost seem to be looking for somebody to stick the boot into, and full of self righteousness will make their point really rudely when they could get their view across politely if they wanted to - but they don't, they get some satisfication out of biting someone's head off or laughing at them. It's horrible. And then the other person will feel the need to defend themselves and before you know it you've got a bun fight on your hands. I have come so close to deleting my account a few times recently because people have been rude when they need not have been - some days it's water off a ducks back, but if you are having a hard time or feeling down already it can hurt, and leave you wondering why some people are so nasty.

Moderation here can be haphazard, and they often mod according to public opinion rather than by their rules, which means the moderation system is open to abuse. If a post gets a large number of complaints it will usually be deleted even if it objectively didn't break talk guidelines.

It's especially bad on threads discussing racism and race issues, because there's a little group of previously banned posters who were banned for posting racism and now have an agenda to bully BAME Mumsnetters off the site. They set up a separate forum on a different website and openly discuss "tactics" for how to manipulate Mumsnet to get posters deleted or banned. I mean they openly post "Haha I reported the post claiming it was offensive to whatever minority and the gullible wokie idiots in MNHQ actually bought it." They coordinate times to mass-report certain posts so they'll be deleted. They harassed the poster who lobbied for a Black Mumsnetter section so badly she had to go to the police, and even photoshopped a fake DM purporting to be from that poster, admitting to being a troll, to try to get her banned.

I had a post detailing my personal experiences as a biracial woman being commissioned to write a TV series for Netflix banned, and when I asked why MNHQ said they'd received a number of reports that it quoted a deleted post, which it definitely didn't. I asked them to look again and they admitted they'd been wrong and undeleted it. Hard to imagine loads of posters all just spontaneously decided to make up the same lie. They obviously just had a problem with a woman of colour having a successful career.

That's the kind of bullying MN need to stamp down on.

You have to remember that at the other end of a cruel comment is a sad, bitter and lonely person. When you actually look at their 'its either one extreme or the other' mindset you realise they aren't too bright either. It's the same on the BBC/local news paper forums too. Forums attract these people - fantasists, bullies and antagonists. I just pity them.

General rule of thumb is not to post on AIBU. I’ve posted threads in the chat forum before and everyone was lovely. I think I posted once in AIBU a few years ago and so many posters were just unnecessarily harsh. Had lots of ‘wow, I’m embarrassed for you’ sort of comments. I didn’t think I was being massively unreasonable fwiw, still don’t .

You have to remember that at the other end of a cruel comment is a sad, bitter and lonely person.

I don't think so, those I know in real life have great social skills and have lots of people in their life.

Just world hypothesis, actually you will find those not as bright or vulnerable in various ways are the ones who struggle. People may start off nice and become bitter as you say. The ones having fun hurting people all their life aren't bitter and lonely at all, in my experience, they tend to do very well in various ways and not suffer much at all.

They set up a separate forum on a different website and openly discuss "tactics" for how to manipulate Mumsnet to get posters deleted or banned.

I am sorry that happened to you.

There are some really evil posters. They get away with it because they spend what looks like most of their time on this site and are considered to be regulars. I assume they have some mental or physical illness which prevents them from working and existing in the real world of life and try to pity them. Sometimes it is funny, we are all guilty of finding the bullying amusing and many of them end up in classics. The one that stands out was a woman who released her goldfish and was so harrangued she turned herself into the police. I thought it was hilarious but looking back, the way people spoke to her was disgusting. I think MN encourage this culture among these people because it keeps them in the daily mail and helps with advertising revenue. It's a business not an exclusive club but people forget that.

This reminds me of a thread that stuck in my head of the Mumsnet bullying mentality. It was in baby names called 'kacey Vs Kacie'.
Poster was just asking for spelling opinions. She was a perfectly normal, polite OP expecting a little girl.

As you'd expect if you've ever been on 'baby names' threads, with it not being a typical 'middle class' name, it wasn't super popular but, fine, not everyone likes the name and you're bound to get some bad responses. But everyone kept suggesting Katie so OP just politely said she doesn't like Katie and it is a bit too common. She clearly meant common in terms of popularity, as in, most people know of a few Katie's their age etc so she didn't want to choose it.
Yet a poster did loads of laughing faces and highlighted her post putting 'too common' in bold.
Not one, not two but three posters then joined in laughing at the OP, saying how ironic, and saying how much that made them laugh.
It was essentially laughing at someone right in front of their face on a thread about baby names to a pregnant woman because they thought the name was beneath them essentially.

It stuck in my head because I thought wow, this is the Mumsnet equivalent of bitchy school girls whispering about someone in plain sight. It wasn't funny at all and someone called them out on it and they stopped.
It isn't the worst I've seen by a long way but it was really unpleasant to see and an example of pure pathetic bullying mentality and snobbery.
I wondered if she went on to have her little Kacey and hoped it didn't spoil the name for her.

Hello all - thanks for your comments. We're really sorry to hear about some of the experiences here. Of the thousands of posts every day on Mumsnet, we know that most are fine but of course, people will remember the not-so-nice ones most. Please bear in mind that you don't have to engage with this kind of thing on the boards - if you report a post or thread to us, we will take a look and get back to you. We will always delete posts that are downright nasty if they're reported.

I once posted about problems with a neighbour. But because everything escalated (and resolved itself) on the same day I was told I was making it up.

The racist thing is absolutely disgusting, not to mention disturbing that people should go to those lengths. I've noticed it on a number of very inflammatory threads on race-related issues and can well understand why it's necessary to have a board catering solely for POC.

There are boards for all manner of other groups and demographics: why there should be specific objections that BAME members felt the need to a place of their own to communicate, I really don't know. There were a number of posters referring to the very creation of such a board as racist. There seems to be a broad agreement that blatant racist pejoratives are very much not okay, but I'm disappointed that attitudes like this - albeit expressed on a less overt level - are still commonplace.

Similarly in other potentially delicate or sensitive areas of discussion, particularly those relating to victims of sexual abuse. The NAMALT defence is guaranteed to make an appearance on all of them, and some women bravely talking about their experiences of issues as serious as rape have found themselves trailed on this site.

This isn't the fault of MN. But it certainly gives an insight into the sort of people who sometimes plague the site, and who possibly find their way here through the likes of the Mail, Reddit, and Twitter.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

The racist thing is absolutely disgusting, not to mention disturbing that people should go to those lengths. I've noticed it on a number of very inflammatory threads on race-related issues and can well understand why it's necessary to have a board catering solely for POC.

There are boards for all manner of other groups and demographics: why there should be specific objections that BAME members felt the need to a place of their own to communicate, I really don't know. There were a number of posters referring to the very creation of such a board as racist. There seems to be a broad agreement that blatant racist pejoratives are very much not okay, but I'm disappointed that attitudes like this - albeit expressed on a less overt level - are still commonplace.

Similarly in other potentially delicate or sensitive areas of discussion, particularly those relating to victims of sexual abuse. The NAMALT defence is guaranteed to make an appearance on all of them, and some women bravely talking about their experiences of issues as serious as rape have found themselves trailed on this site.

This isn't the fault of MN. But it certainly gives an insight into the sort of people who sometimes plague the site, and who possibly find their way here through the likes of the Mail, Reddit, and Twitter.

Sadly I think it just reflects society generally, that kind of stuff.

Thanks for this thread OP. I’m really sorry to read some of these posts and of posters experiences.
I’ve definitely had my fair share of people not being very nice on threads, and it seems worse when you put yourself out there and share your experiences. I’ve been left really upset a couple of times over responses to my posts that I’ve written.
I wrote a post where I shared that we had adopted dd after I couldn’t have another child biologically after ds (How dare I on a thread that was titled “AIBU to be jealous of parents with more than one child”) so many awful posts ridiculing me after that one.
Another big mistake was sharing how my dad had died when I was 22 which had (along with other things) given me a very forgive and move on/life’s too short perspective. I was shot down in flames for judging people for being NC with parents. I honestly wasn’t judging, I was only sharing my experiences and thought process. But I cried over that one I have to be honest, I was called “privileged” that I cared enough about my dad to have cared about him dying.
So yes, I agree. There’s a culture on here sometimes that makes me feel uncomfortable and intimidated. It sometimes prevents me from posting.
I need to stay away from AIBU threads and Royal Family threads I think,

I think AIBU (and sometimes Chat) is full of posters who think they are brighter than they actually are.

They know how to spell so they snark on those who make typos or can’t spell, whilst missing the point that communication is about communicating.

They spot a hole in a story so pick pick pick at it thinking they’re oh so clever to have spotted it, whilst missing the point that a lot of people obscure details on mumsnet.

They use phrases that they probably think are pithy and witty but actually are just rude and unimaginative, like “are you on glue”, or “you sound like hard work”.

They can’t imagine anyone having a different life to theirs. Particularly abusive relations. I hate the “oh you can’t complain about your mum even though she abused you as a child because my mum is dead!”

Just a lack of emotional intelligence and logic or common sense.

And then of course there’s the genuine trolls who clearly hate mumsnet being mainly female, but that’s a different issue.

I have to say that I read other forums more than mumsnet and the outstanding thing I take from mumsnet is that it gives a poor representation of women.

Conversely to all of the above though there are some posters who post sensible, helpful, intelligent posts so not everyone is an idiot

Just world hypothesis, actually you will find those not as bright or vulnerable in various ways are the ones who struggle. People may start off nice and become bitter as you say. The ones having fun hurting people all their life aren't bitter and lonely at all, in my experience, they tend to do very well in various ways and not suffer much at all.

Maybe outwardly, but you can have lots of friends and still be bitter and lonely. It's a lonely place being surrounded by a lot of other superficial bitches.

For me, the type of person who ads a post about an unwanted pregnancy and retorts that the OP is thick as mince because they have clearly not used contraception and us just breeding is showing a real lack of awareness of the fact that contraception fails, or that some people end up in abusive situations and are coerced in their relationship.