Bullying and mumsnet

[hattiecattie]

I'm a long time lurker since I had my DD 8 years ago. I have noticed since the first day I joined mumsnet that there is a huge bullying culture here that takes place. I have witnessed so many pile ons happen to desperate people asking for help. Even if you don't agree with someone, there's no need to be cruel.

I wonder if there's a way that MNHQ can challenge this? Shut down bullying on this site as soon as it occurs.

@psychomath I totally agree with this. Something horrendous has happened to me recently and I got a whole load of very nasty comments saying it "must" be my fault as otherwise it would never happen.
I didn't understand why they were saying that until another poster said it was probably making them feel uncomfortable that it could happen to any of us given the "perfect storm" in circumstance.
Rather than helping me, it made me feel even more fragile than I already was. I eventually stepped away which was the right thing to do.

@Whoarethewho

The bar is already pretty low For what will be removed as not in the spirit. And this makes it a bit of an echo chamber at times. As you cannot meaningfully challenge posts. Be too brutal and no matter how correct you are you are you are likely to get removed. I wish it was a bit more like Twitter or piston heads (without the sexism) where more cut and thrust comments were allowed.

What constitutes a "cut and thrust" comment though?

What does being "more brutal" mean?

It's quite interesting - and enjoyable - to see what happens when there's a pile-on and then two or three posters go against the group mentality and post something sensible that supports the OP.

When everyone disagrees with the OP then someone comes along to agree I just think possible ‘sock’.

When everyone disagrees with the OP then someone comes along to agree I just think possible ‘sock’.

That's unfair Sparkling

I'm often that poster! I am at present on another thread (where OP has been harassed off her own thread, tho she's accused of 'flouncing') and indeed I have been accused of SP!

I often will deliberately post where there's been a needlessly aggressive pile on. It's probably a bit silly, but I do hate the rabble rousing & tend to want to challenge it.

Is it called 'strawman' where they accuse you of saying things you didn't by purposefully twisting?

I remember 5% - 10% of the population have disorders that makes them want to harm others.

You also get people who genuinely disagree with you. You then get zealots like a certain Prince who call disagreement with them hate speech and abuse, they seem information they don't like as a genuine physical punch in the face, they seem to like the philosophy of requesting you be kind to them, they only offer kindness to those they seem worthy, it's like in the case of the prince, they tell you to do what they should be doing and don't.

Then there is a spectrum of people who will be nice to some and not others at different times, I for instance can change when I have PMT. You as reader can also misunderstand the written word as there is no time or body language.

*Yesterday 21:46Bettysnow

I have often thought this. A couple of times words i have said have been twisted to suit someone else's nasty narrative although challenging them usually puts a stop to their gallop!*

Likely these opinionated people wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life. Much easier to create an alter ego online but i agree have seen a few threads in the past where the pack mentality got particularly vicious. In fairness to the mumsnet moderators they were taken down although i imagine the op was feeling horrendous by then.

I think they are likely the same in real life.

On the namechanging - I think it is a key benefit of the site and allows for much better privacy/anonymity so I wouldn't like it changed - if there is a bullying issue we should resolve that.

I think discussing it is important and just this conversation has made me think I will try harder myself.

@Sparklingbrook

It's quite interesting - and enjoyable - to see what happens when there's a pile-on and then two or three posters go against the group mentality and post something sensible that supports the OP.

When everyone disagrees with the OP then someone comes along to agree I just think possible ‘sock’.

I've been on those threads though.
I have at times been the one to agree with the OP against the tide. I can point to examples (parent and child parking spaces, cheating incident) if I have to.

If you're really thinking "sock puppet" just because someone dares to have a contrary view to the masses? Then that's really concerning to me in terms of your rationale and thinking.

In fact I'd go on to argue that this is the foundation of the schoolgirl gang mentality that prevails on AIBU.

It feels like you're essentially saying that if the first 50 posts all agree; then this is a sealed consensus . Anything posted after that has to be a sock puppet because hey! All the regular Mumsnetters have passed their verdict, and anyone in support of the OP must be a digital clone of the OP.

I mean that argument is just beyond me..

Plus unless someone is posting from two separate devices with different internet connections MNHQ can detect a sock easily.

It feels like you're essentially saying that if the first 50 posts all agree; then this is a sealed consensus . Anything posted after that has to be a sock puppet because hey! All the regular Mumsnetters have passed their verdict, and anyone in support of the OP must be a digital clone of the OP

No I don't think that. I will just think that's probably a sock, I might ask MNHQ if it is, but more often than not it's just a fleeting thought and that's it. Fortunately other Mumsnetters can't report my internal thoughts.

@EarringsandLipstick same here, I often think hang on now, all you sanctimonious keyboard warriors taking a swipe at the OP who came to this board feeling insecure/depressed/upset. it's ridiculous. The actual precise right or wrong is not the point. For me the point becomes what am I participating in here? an absolute witch hunt? I can't bear it.

@SnarkyBag

I think rather than #bekind it’s more a case of #dontbeacunt

This

Some careers call for this and some people are excessively busy body trouble makers, the worse busy body I knew wanted others to believe her, she accused my ex of doing what her step dad did and lots of strange things in transference, she looked me and my ex up online, told me his new business and later told people I was a liar and all sorts about me.

I have come to the conclusion that someone I volunteered with was correct she said her sibling worked in mental health and that 90% of the population is insane or had issues, in one way or another. I have now stopped thinking people are good natured, well meaning, truthful people and my new starting position is assume they are out to hurt people, MN has cemented that along with watching politicians, private sector, charity and most government departments demand we lie and they will lie to us about biology, I just don't feel the same way about people anymore, few clearly have any integrity if they will lie about that.

Yesterday 22:15Shitfuckcommaetc

It's the picking apart of posts I don't like, every minute detail of every post written EVER. To try and catch someone out in a lie. Why?? It's the Internet, if you don't think it's real fine, but just leave it at that!!
This place is full of wannabe bloody sherlocks

@Sparklingbrook

It feels like you're essentially saying that if the first 50 posts all agree; then this is a sealed consensus . Anything posted after that has to be a sock puppet because hey! All the regular Mumsnetters have passed their verdict, and anyone in support of the OP must be a digital clone of the OP

No I don't think that. I will just think that's probably a sock, I might ask MNHQ if it is, but more often than not it's just a fleeting thought and that's it. Fortunately other Mumsnetters can't report my internal thoughts.

That's fascinating. So if you see someone who agrees with an OP, you proactively test with HQ whether that could be a sock puppet, based on the incredulity that anyone could agree with an OP that is clearly being unreasonable

Well. It's interesting to me to learn how the echo chamber on here is formed so to speak.

I've seen this on other threads - it's often the regular posters with the recognisable names that call out "trolls" and so on.

While all forums have trolls, I worry about the definition of a troll on this board.

If someone posts their lived experience but it wildly goes against the grain of the consensus of shared Mumsnet experience, I've seen them immediately called out as a troll multiple times by regular posters.

Why?

Does everything have to be shared fences, driveway parking, going NC with a MIL, having points stolen from Morrisons More, etc?

I totally agree with you OP. Alot of nasty and bullying people out there. Something does need to be done x

I've noticed in the last few years but don't know what to call it is that some posters take a factual point of view as your opinion.

Eg on the American election threads I said something like it's very hard to know what will happen as Trump is still very popular in certain areas. This was interpreted as I'm a MAGA lover! I find Trump awful but that doesn't mean I have to pretend that no one likes him.

That's fascinating. So if you see someone who agrees with an OP, you proactively test with HQ whether that could be a sock puppet, based on the incredulity that anyone could agree with an OP that is clearly being unreasonable

Quite rare for me to ask but generally I would roll my eyes and move on.

All this ‘telling someone they are unreasonable’ is a bit disingenuous, too.

It’s not bullying to say YABU, any more than it’s bullying to say someone’s performance at work isn’t up to much or to challenge a friend at school who has been unkind about you. We can all think of examples when we might have to say something someone might not want to hear but it isn’t bullying.

Where it crosses the line to bullying for me is when assumptions about the OPs character are made, often with glee. Things like ‘you sound entitled / would you describe yourself as a narcissist / you sound horrible.’

Then some posters are masters at using the face to convey scorn. So you get someone stressed (say) with a baby sleep issue of child’s behaviour and you get ‘hang on, you’re upset because she’s been asleep for three hours ’

How do you report that to MNHQ? It’s obvious that the intention is ‘I think you are a fucking fool’ but they haven’t said it. Or you get something like ‘your poor children ’

It’s just really pointless.

@EarringsandLipstick Are you?

That's fascinating. So if you see someone who agrees with an OP, you proactively test with HQ whether that could be a sock puppet, based on the incredulity that anyone could agree with an OP that is clearly being unreasonable

It's odd as often threads aren't black & white & you can see where both parties might be upset or hurt.

Some of the family threads surprise me because I find it strange how some posters jump to the worst case scenario similar to the husband/partner ones where someone is home late once & then posters muse he has a secret family.

I thought mass lies about biology had finished people off for me, nope, behavior during covid did.

I feel like the last few years a curtain has been pulled back and I see the pathetic people behind it all, once you see it you can't un see it. I have been severely put off people worse due to the pandemic, they showed us who they are.

I agree with you OP. A couple of months ago I agreed with someone on a Covid thread about the amount of people mixing and not caring about the rules any more. There was a long list of people sending laughing emojis at my post, and comments making out I must want to stay isolated forever etc, really horrible and mocking me. I left the thread and changed my name, but I felt shaky and horrible. All I was saying was to keep to the rules, I wasn't saying anything extreme at all. I never look at Covid threads now, and certainly won't get involved in them again!

The covid board is awful.

You go out for a coffee, or look forward to a time when children aren’t in masks at school, and you want people to die.

You are worried about covid still and you’re an idiot.

You are worried about the vaccine and you’re an anti vaxxer.

There’s just absolutely no support, it’s just shouting.

A lot of the Covid threads are quite bonkers. You can’t say anything really because it all seems very polarised with all the ‘killing grannies’ stuff but it seems to be easing a bit now.

There are regular active users with usernames of five years standing who have posted on multiple threads today alone , who have all used the "sniffing glue", "go see a psychiatrist" comments

Have you reported them?

If you see them regularly posting like this, have you reported them regularly?

MN is not and never has been a pre-moderated site. It would be impossible to be so as it's so big. So it's down to us as the content providers to report posts/posters that are against Talk Guidelines.

Sadly, MN is so large now that it's like any community in the real world - most people are nice, but some are not, and some are here only to goad and cause trouble. MNHQ do their best to deal with the trolls and goady posters, and they step in (when something is drawn to their attention) to deal with posts/posters that are 'not in the spirit' - but doing that objectively can be very difficult. As PP have pointed out, a lot of this is about tone, and not being able to read the tone right.

Also, however, some people just don't like it when they're disagreed with, or when direct, even strong, words are used in such disagreement. That's not bullying however.

Adding a like button will not help any of this - how could it? Are people going to press 'like' when they see someone being bullied? And you only have to look at places like reddit, with the up and downvoting, to see how this is used to be unpleasant!

The only way to deal with posts/posters that we believe are being unpleasant (or bullying, if you really think that's happening) is to report to MNHQ.

... and to remember, ourselves, to post more carefully and with consideration.

It’s the mean girls mentality. You have someone who will disagree in a nasty, not very constructive, way, and others will follow like sheep. You just need to have an indifferent attitude to comments on here. Why would I care that some stranger on the internet throws insults at me? They don’t know me, I don’t know them, so why care? There are some lovely supportive people on MN, and you can just pick out their helpful comments, whether they agree with your POV or not. You can disagree with someone without being aggressive.

Biwi I agree (I sometimes worry that MNHQ roll their eyes to the ceiling when I report!) but the problem is when people post in such a way that doesn’t really break guidelines but is awful just the same.

It’s like the subtle bullying some of us experienced at school. Horrible.