To think the benefits system needs an overhaul...

[Barbitchurate]

So I am currently going through benefits applications and it's been pretty eye opening. I have three nationalities - a little outing - but have spent a fair amount of time in the UK now and have worked and contributed into the system, but I equally understand there's people who rely on benefits who cannot contribute prior to needing them.

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education; to be honest I didn't really look into it because the expectation was you got a job alongside your studies.

I had to claim benefits due to unemployment and a pandemic-delayed start to a new job - I didn't claim until I was basically hitting my overdraft limit and the job centre coach told me off for this. Apparently I should have claimed the moment I was giving my redundancy notice - opps on my part.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim, and this was brought out again in a documentary I was watching where a care leaver had spent all his UC in the first day of getting it, he was already living in a homeless hostel, but I sat watching and wondered how he would ever be able to improve his situation if nobody explained to him about budgeting and financial skills.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible).

Damn it this was meant for Chat, not AIBU. Wrong forum.

I think people think it might not be moral to cause children to starve due to their parents decisions on vaccinations and not getting them to school.

I was just about to say Bringminimoons that I read an article on the BBC website how the Australian benefits system is problematic for the Aboriginal community because of that very rule.

There are already loads of services dealing with all these issues.

I don’t see how they would be delivered more effectively by connecting them to benefits.

If anything it is the wrong way around, as many workers who are attempting to help children will advocate for the family to get the benefits they should be getting.

I think giving someone money when they need it is enough . You can’t police how someone spends it. The state can’t be all things to all people.

undergraduate students here are not expected to work
And yet, many do. Those that don’t, in my experience, are those completing courses on medicine, nursing , teaching etc, where doing the job is a requirement of passing the course.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim
Because people on benefits need this kind of advice? You don’t think the vast majority understand how to budget? Budgeting is something that may be worked on in schools through PSHE or even maths. It is a responsibility of parents or care givers to work on this with their children as well.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking

All benefits claimants need help with getting their children to school? Or need to stop smoking or drinking? You don’t think perhaps you’re stereotyping here?

wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition

How about employers not discriminating against disabled applicants for jobs?

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states

Oh yeah, that fantastic racist system designed to remove Aboriginal children from their parents.

Let's not replicate that, thanks.

UC assesses you for your capability to work and to do work related activity. You are then put into an appropriate work group.

So while I was to ill to work, I was still judged well enough for work related activity and given support to keep honing my work related skills.

@Bringminimoons

I think people think it might not be moral to cause children to starve due to their parents decisions on vaccinations and not getting them to school.

This

The benefits system does indeed need an overhaul, but your suggestion of asking intrusive lifestyle questions is just going to prevent people from claiming. Those people will then still be in need, falling into rent arrears and poverty.

I would support a contributions-based benefits system like the one they have in the Netherlands, where what you get out is linked to what you put in. So if you've worked for 20 years and lose your job, in the Netherlands you get a % of your last salary up to a maximum of 75%, for a fixed term. This means you don't have an immediate gigantic income drop and you can afford to look for work, go for interviews and continue some sort of life. It's generous, but only if you earn it. The basic on the other hand is very basic.

The UK system is broken and inhumane and has been deliberately engineered to be so. It's shameful.

@user1927462849194729

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states

Oh yeah, that fantastic racist system designed to remove Aboriginal children from their parents.

Let's not replicate that, thanks.

Sounds barbaric

So you think losing your job and having to claim the dole, which you paid into, possible for decades, means your life needs to be gone over like a criminal? Fucking hell.

YABVU!

How judgemental, moralistic, stereotypical and degrading can you get?

Fuck that.

No, none of that needs to take place, thank fuck.

I'm not saying I agree with the Australian system - and I have worked in health care within the ATSI communities so I do know the issues... I am also not saying children should starve.

Benefits are often going to "hard to reach" people (which actually just means services haven't tried hard enough to engage with them...) - surely the new claims and the claim renewals are a good time to try and interact?

I was never taught budgeting in school, nor finance - and none of my UK counterparts were too (unless they chose to study economics). I've taught first year university students and none of them have a bloody clue about budgeting, nor do the vast majority of them work (and it's not a work placement type degree).

I have a child with autism who school refuses. So if we needed benefits, we should all starve due to this?

As already pointed out, there are services that already cover all those things in the UK, but I'd like to ask, if a benefits form asked if your child attended school regularly and you were a single parent struggling with multiple chldren and one of them was being difficult about going to school, would you suggest their benefits be cut becasue of it, as i really dont see how that would end up a good thing.

Financial and budgeting advice might be a good idea, but again, dont school's teach this for car leavers and young people?
Im not really sure its the Gov's job or it even has the extra money to put into informing people not to spend their JSA on the first day they get it.
You would hope that might be common sense.

t's generous, but only if you earn it.

But what happens if you cannot earn it, Ie - you haven't had the educational background to get into the degrees you need to earn it?

Should also say that whilst many don't agree (and as I said, Im not sure I agree with it) with the Australian system - it has improved school leavers rates, and home ownership rates, whilst decreasing homelessness within ATSI populations.

@Barbitchurate

I'm not saying I agree with the Australian system - and I have worked in health care within the ATSI communities so I do know the issues... I am also not saying children should starve.

Benefits are often going to "hard to reach" people (which actually just means services haven't tried hard enough to engage with them...) - surely the new claims and the claim renewals are a good time to try and interact?

I was never taught budgeting in school, nor finance - and none of my UK counterparts were too (unless they chose to study economics). I've taught first year university students and none of them have a bloody clue about budgeting, nor do the vast majority of them work (and it's not a work placement type degree).

Surely it's not the business of a place whose aim is to secure your employment' to go over adult human being's lives with a fine tooth comb because they are, well, adults^ who can find information out for themselves?

Why are they a good time to interact? The vast majority of people who need budgeting, child rearing and other types of advice are not new benefits claimants, and the vast majority of new claimants don’t need this advice.

The example you give of the young care leaver, well there should be a support package in place around vulnerable care leavers. That is wholly separate to the benefits system.

Most families claim benefits. They are not something specific to excluded people.

@Barbitchurate

Should also say that whilst many don't agree (and as I said, Im not sure I agree with it) with the Australian system - it has improved school leavers rates, and home ownership rates, whilst decreasing homelessness within ATSI populations.

That's nice for Australia. We don't live there.

So glad, too, having a school refuser who has social work involvement already (btw, when kids school refuse here, the school calls in the services, like social work, you don't need a welfare officer threatening to yank the family's sustenance for that to happen).

@LibertyMole there was zero package of support around the UC, care leaver example I gave - hence why I used it as an example. I've actually heard this story repeated many, many times - it's not a sole individual case.

A good time to interact because the contact has been made - people who may not have been reached by services are now in contact with services/support.

But care leavers should be offered support regardless of whether or not they are on UC.

The fact that some are not doesn’t make UC the answer or the way of identifying them as vulnerable.

What truly needs overhauling is a basic living wage without the cost of everything going up. The "living wage" in the UK is simply not enough to support one person, let alone a family. Rent is astronomical, there is not enough council housing, rising costs due to Brexit are hitting hard, and council tax is huge with very few services provided. Those forced into benefits have an enormous uphill battle if they ever want to improve their situation.

Thank goodness the Tories are in charge, they really care about looking after low-earners and those unable to work...

@LibertyMole

There are already loads of services dealing with all these issues.

I don’t see how they would be delivered more effectively by connecting them to benefits.

If anything it is the wrong way around, as many workers who are attempting to help children will advocate for the family to get the benefits they should be getting.

And most of them desperately underfunded and over capacity.

I used to work in homelessness prevention. We helped people keep their tenancies or find new ones, supported with budgetting, benefits, anti-social behaviour, addictions, domestic abuse, mental health problems, pretty much everything. We also We could work with clients for 2 years, which was enough time to coach them so they had the skills they needed to maintain a tenancy. The project was regarded as the gold standard for that kind of work and achieved outstanding results that were life changing for clients.

Over the last 10 years, budgets have been cut to the bone because of the cuts in central government funding to local authorities. That coincided with the introduction of the Homelessness Reduction Act, which involves a mountain of bureaucratic form filling and has created an awful lot of work.

The project I used to work on can now only work with clients for 6 weeks, which isn't enough time to get beyond the immediate and urgent problems. What used to transform lives has been reduced to a sticking plaster.

The bottom line is that the government doesn't give a shit about the sort of problems the OP has mentioned. The amount of help out there is shrinking all the time, and has since Cameron and Blair stopped funding benefit advice work.

The holes in the safety net get bigger every day, and more and more vulnerable people are falling through them. I work in welfare rights now, our whole team is at capacity and we are having to restrict the number of referrals we can take. We have lost 40 hours of staff time a week, equivalent to more than one f/t post, because of funding cuts.

And no seems to give a shit about it.