To think the benefits system needs an overhaul...

[Barbitchurate]

So I am currently going through benefits applications and it's been pretty eye opening. I have three nationalities - a little outing - but have spent a fair amount of time in the UK now and have worked and contributed into the system, but I equally understand there's people who rely on benefits who cannot contribute prior to needing them.

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education; to be honest I didn't really look into it because the expectation was you got a job alongside your studies.

I had to claim benefits due to unemployment and a pandemic-delayed start to a new job - I didn't claim until I was basically hitting my overdraft limit and the job centre coach told me off for this. Apparently I should have claimed the moment I was giving my redundancy notice - opps on my part.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim, and this was brought out again in a documentary I was watching where a care leaver had spent all his UC in the first day of getting it, he was already living in a homeless hostel, but I sat watching and wondered how he would ever be able to improve his situation if nobody explained to him about budgeting and financial skills.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible).

Barbitchurate the Dutch school system is very different from the UK one. Vocational education is far, far better and there are more routes into work that pays a decent wage. Housing is expensive, but minimum wage is a tad higher and you get an 8% holiday allowance on top of that, so as well as paid annual leave you get money. The rental sector is more tightly controlled than it is in the UK and there are actual minimum standards that houses need to conform to in order for them to be habitable (unlike the UK, where the Tories keep voting this down and mould-ridden fleapits with dangerous electrics are fine).

Monthly minimum wage as of 1st of July 2021 in the Netherlands before tax is 1685 Euros. So even if you work a minimum wage job and you lose it, your benefits will be better than they would be in the UK.

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

I work in the jobcenter in Denmark. The help that you get depends on which group you are in. Insured unemployed - courses, work experience, help with applications, occasionally help to navigate the system and joblog, occasional referrals to alcohol/drug services. Expected to take a 37 hr job. Very much temporary for the vast majority. Uninsured job ready - all of the above, plus mentor. Expected to take jobs from 25-37 hours. Generally a bit more going on. Hopefully temporary, but a lot are in and out like a revolving door and STILL dont pay unemployment insurance. Uninsured activity ready - depends entirely on their needs but generally these people have a lot of shit going on in their life. I would say every 2nd woman in this category was a survivor of childhood abuse, or domestic abuse. Sickness benefit - I have no fucking clue what those advisors actually do. The legal framework doesnt seem to compliment the other groups at all. Currently we are collecting evidence for our boss to present their boss on how their approach doesnt help us and our clients at all.

No system is perfect. Statistically generation after generation on benefits is the exception rather than the norm. But it tends to happen with the uninsured acrivity ready.

The titles are different, but overall this is very similar to the U.K. system. Your insured job ready would cover the U.K. new-style JSA customers, who can only claim the benefit if they have paid enough national insurance.

DM being assessed for ESA had seven seizures on the floor of the office she was being assessed in.

The ‘doctor’ looked down, tutted and said, ‘well that’s awful but it’s not for more than 12 hours of the day is it? so she CAN work somewhere ....’

Cue job centre phoning asking me to enroll mum in a cookery course, and another on computer programming . Shouted at me when I said she wouldn’t be able to attend without a carer.

Mum who can’t use her landline phone .

Sibling has severe multiple LDs and autism . Assessor said,
‘She could probably type for someone couldn’t she?’ Have seen her assessment paperwork that states she couldn’t be that disabled because she looked clean .

So she’s refused most benefits ...

System is dreadful . It does need overhauling but not in the way that you’re suggesting .

@pointythings Wow, see that is really great - I am a huge supporter of more routes into vocational areas - I am pretty sure my area of work could be offered as a flex-vocational degree instead of four years plus masters plus (to get into a 30k plus job) PhD. We are literally putting people through five years of university debt knowing that there are only jobs for 2% of them - it's immoral - I no longer work at a University partly because I absolutely could not stand by this decision with no reforms.

Thankfully covid means those reforms are now being given a swift kick into action.

Buy yes to more vocational routes into education, and yes to more options for flexi vocational / academic qualifications.

@needingrespite really, really sorry to hear you've been through that. That's pretty shocking. Surely with seizures her commitments would be no work/course near heat source / water and fall risk areas?

I hope you complained to the assessor workplace. Fuckwit.

@Barbitchurate

Secondly, whoever has told you that your won't get employment advice and will have to move benefits while you're are signed off sick is just plain wrong.

I would have to move from JSA to ESA to JSA - and it affects UC in all cases - is that not correct? Because two people have told me this from the job centre and CAB also said the same?

The PIP bit doesn't change if it's awarded.

If you have a new-style, contributions based claim for JSA, then yes it is linked to your ability to work (clue is in the title). It will only last 26 weeks though, and you won't actually be any better off by claiming JSA in addition to UC as they will deduct your JSA payment from your UC payment. If you have a UC claim it will run throughout as it is income based.

A lot of your assumptions are incorrect.
Student loans don’t cover your living costs, not even close.
You can still look for work when you are signed off sick, but you aren’t obligated because you are sick.

"@Sleepyblueocean completely agree, unfortunately I cannot see how it is possible."

We could start by having a suitable full time school place for every child and access to all state provided provisions that a child has been accessed as requiring. The state could actually provide what it is legally supposed to be providing.

@RickiTarr I have been neither facist or racist anywhere on this thread. Go and read my OP again, and you will see what I said -

I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this

Also, I am British, hold full citizenship, and was born here...

@OwlBeThere it was the JobCentre Work Coach who said I would be given no support to look for work whilst signed off. It's not an assumption. They literally will provided no support for it - and that's been clarified by someone else (and CAB).

@Sleepyblueocean I think I would maybe start a bit earlier - providing nursery / daycare places with significantly more funding available allowing both parents to have income potentially if they both wished? I'm not sure though - some on this thread would then be telling me that I was forcing women to work!

Reachersloveinterest thats interesting to know. Insurance here costs from 50 quid a month but is deductable from tax. Its entirely voluntary. You can also join the insurance within 2 weeks of finishing your education and get a slightly lower amount starting 2 months later.

There are other groups but tried to keep it fairly simple.

Denmark does not have 3 years ML. I think Sweden has 2 years. Theres quite a lot of employers who dont take on young women because of this.

I’ve read everything you said. It’s bizarre but you seem to be holding views slightly to the right of Thatcher and are stereotyping the unemployed appallingly despite being one of them.

You’re also straight up factually incorrect on several points, as a number of posters are telling you, but you don’t seem inclined to listen.

Quite peculiar.

I think budgeting, credit cards, mortgages, loans etc would be a better use of maths lessons than quadratic equations and trigonometry etc which a vast majority of people wouldnt need after leaving school.
I helped run a charity BBQ for a local community club. There was already a set price for tickets and some of the other people organising seemed either clueless or not bothered about budgeting. They were getting (masses) of 6 packs of sausages from Waitrose and burger buns from the expensive bakery nearby. When we suggested approaching a butcher or buying in bulk (or even going to Aldi!) would be loads more cost effective and thus raise more money for the club they were quite surprised.

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale ah, I did not know about the downside for the maternity leave aspect, although unsurprised to read it happens.

Do you have what we can national insurance or is that the unemployment insurance? And, do you have to pay separate health insurance too?

@pointythings

Barbitchurate the Dutch school system is very different from the UK one. Vocational education is far, far better and there are more routes into work that pays a decent wage. Housing is expensive, but minimum wage is a tad higher and you get an 8% holiday allowance on top of that, so as well as paid annual leave you get money. The rental sector is more tightly controlled than it is in the UK and there are actual minimum standards that houses need to conform to in order for them to be habitable (unlike the UK, where the Tories keep voting this down and mould-ridden fleapits with dangerous electrics are fine).

Monthly minimum wage as of 1st of July 2021 in the Netherlands before tax is 1685 Euros. So even if you work a minimum wage job and you lose it, your benefits will be better than they would be in the UK.

That's not quite accurate about all of the Dutch rental sector. It is probably true about the social housing sector, but I've rented student and private accommodation in the Netherlands quite recently, and the standards can be appalling in what we tend to call HMOs here (shared larger units).

But no one cares! You want to live on a tiny room on the top floor with a velux window and burn to death if you can't get down that narrow staircase because it's on the Hooigracht in Leiden or Jankerkshof in Utrecht and it's cheap - no ones going to stop you.

God, I lived in a total pit in 2015 but because it was in a great area and the room was quite big and it only cost 350 euros, I lived it. But it was a total death trap and the cooker had seen better days. Mice loved that house. And I was registered there! One of my housemates got a really bad burn from touching the radiator in her room, which appeared to have no upper heat limit - you couldn't leave clothes on it to dry or it would singe them to a crisp!

HMOs are now quite strictly regulated in many areas of England but no country on earth regulates them as strictly as Scotland - licensed and inspected at least every 3 years, subject to a vast and frequently changing list of safety requirements, including minimum room sizes and toilet and kitchen provision per person, self closing fire resistant doors, mains operated smoke alarms with battery back up inspected monthly, fire extinguishers and fire blankets renewed every 3 years, fireproof letterboxes, up to ddifferent safety checks before the license is granted - I'm only scratching the surface. This is for every property in Scotland that is rented to 3 or more unrelated persons.

The Scots wouldn't be able to cope with the typical Dutch staircase, and would condemn the entire building! But since so many of them don't leave home til they move in with a partner, there's less pressure I guess.

Currently searching for new accommodation in NL as I'm moving back, but I think I'm going into university postgraduate if I can get the parking sorted out.

@RickiTarr Again, I haven't stereotyped anyone. You are the only poster on this thread who isn't engaging in a civl manner - you've called me facist and racist, perhaps it's time for you to leave the thread? You aren't really adding anything to do it apart from mislaid insults.

Why have you included students and jobs in your musings? Most students don’t claim benefits and are not eligible for them unless they have children themselves. So what has that got to do with overhauling the benefits system?

@Macaronirabbit I agree - I know posters have said that budgeting has been taught as PHSE but I do not know anyone who has had that (perhaps it was taught so poorly they have forgotten it).

I also think you would have more students engaging with maths if they could see the usefulness of it in adult day-to-day life!

@PriestessofPing it was more a musing of the expectation of debt - quite a lot of students do claim benefits in the holidays, and many students who were meant to do work placements last year had to claim benefits as those placements didn't go ahead (covid).

Also students can claim PIP as well (all year)

Agreed re budgeting advice for those who need it I worked in a jobcentre years ago, before UC. I helped 16 & 17yr olds when I were estranged from parents, living in YMCA hostels, sofa surfing etc. And so many of them spent every penny as soon as they got paid, then ran up enormous Crisis Loan debts to eat. Its even worse now, Crisis Loans are gone! Not just young people that need this advice tbh, I saw many people whose had lost decent paying jobs who had no idea how to cope suddenly on £73 a week.

The only people who seem to get budgeting advice now are those who are long term on UC. After 18m on it myself, I had to attend a five day course with nine other struggling single mothers/DLA & PiP claimants. A bloke patronising told us we didn't need Sky Sports, designer clothes, two cars and takeaways. Seriously. A bunch of women, many of whom had managed to keep their families going for decades on absolute peanuts, and that was his advice! Oh, and if you can't pay a bill, phone the company up and make a payment arrangement. Cheers for that wisdom 🙄

Oh and to make my comments more relevant to the OP - students in the netherlands can claim welfare benefits. Although I'm not sure of the rules applying.

A lot of things about the Dutch tax and welfare system are very clever and well thought through.

There is somewhat more of an emphasis on self responsibility though I think, that the British wouldn't accept.

I think you are still not understanding that some people are not getting what they are supposed to be getting and that eg some people cannot work because their child does not have a school place or is only allowed in school for a few hours a day.

Thank you RickiTarr. I really want to give up as it's worn me down and hard to keep going but I'm still trying to get out. I have a DV worker but she's so busy and hard to get hold of but it's not her fault and I hope she can help. Social services refused to help. GP says they should but I can't force them. I don't think Covid has made a difference for me because area I live housing already very bad. It's made it harder to go to shared accommodation like refuges because of the risk of vulnerable but the problem is for after refuge anyway. Maybe it's also made DV workers more busy so maybe Covid has made it worse a bit but the housing is the main problem and was very bad before covid. I don't understand why people think it's to do with maintaining a budget or tenancy when it's just not having a budget or tenancy that's the problem. I know some people need more help but they lump us all in together to try to blame us for our situations. There's a thread about buy to let where landlords are saying they won't have tenants on benefits. I understand why because benefits are not enough to pay the rent although I have higher rate so can afford it but anyway the problem is councils refuse to believe that and keep saying to just private rent. I find the lack of honesty harder than abuse sometimes and I know I sound bitter but I feel like if I was killed, people would say things like if only she had the courage to leave when actually leaving is not possible without somewhere safe to be.

@Sleepyblueocean No, I do understand that - I totally understand that. Maybe we need a Societal Overhaul instead.