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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the benefits system needs an overhaul...

165 replies

Barbitchurate · 09/05/2021 10:33

So I am currently going through benefits applications and it's been pretty eye opening. I have three nationalities - a little outing - but have spent a fair amount of time in the UK now and have worked and contributed into the system, but I equally understand there's people who rely on benefits who cannot contribute prior to needing them.

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education; to be honest I didn't really look into it because the expectation was you got a job alongside your studies.

I had to claim benefits due to unemployment and a pandemic-delayed start to a new job - I didn't claim until I was basically hitting my overdraft limit and the job centre coach told me off for this. Apparently I should have claimed the moment I was giving my redundancy notice - opps on my part.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim, and this was brought out again in a documentary I was watching where a care leaver had spent all his UC in the first day of getting it, he was already living in a homeless hostel, but I sat watching and wondered how he would ever be able to improve his situation if nobody explained to him about budgeting and financial skills.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible).

OP posts:
IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 09/05/2021 12:48

I think the system needs an overhaul. More should be contribution based and time limited. Lower caps and no disregards for the cap if working a few hours.

No option to have a SAHP or part time worker and be able to claim, those choices should be funded by the person making those decisions not others.

Teaching budgeting to children should be a parenting basic.

Pemba · 09/05/2021 12:54

'contribution based and time limited' so what happens after that then. Families left to starve?

Or am I misunderstanding something?

safeornotsafe · 09/05/2021 12:57

If it's contributions based and time limited, can people like me with disabilities be allowed assisted suicide instead of slow death.

MinesAPintOfTea · 09/05/2021 13:01

There is a difference between working full time and job seeking. All the job centre is doing is giving you the chance to recover while temporarily signed off. You can still continue your own job hunt, do your own development activities etc, you just won’t be sanctioned for not meeting their minimum levels.

Most people get work from sources outside the job centre anyway.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have people on short term sick notes have their benefits cut so they can’t feed themselves? Or do you want people who are sick (during a pandemic!) to be obliged to attend the job centre and explain themselves after a doctor has signed to say they are too ill to work? What is that supposed to achieve?

Liliolla · 09/05/2021 13:01

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Barbitchurate · 09/05/2021 13:02

@safeornotsafe I am really sorry for what you are going through - do you have any support around you over the weekend?

PIP and UC are not time limited - have you applied for PIP?

OP posts:
Barbitchurate · 09/05/2021 13:04

@MinesAPintOfTea - I don't think anyone is attending job centres at the moment, and clearly there are people who are ill and cannot work and cannot do courses - however, it's frustrating to know a will have some weeks where I can do limited hours for job seeking and won't be given the support to do so - that means, for me, I will then stay on benefits longer.

OP posts:
Barbitchurate · 09/05/2021 13:06

@Pemba I am not sure, I will ask. Given the huge rise in the number on JSA it surely needs to be reviewed.

OP posts:
Barbitchurate · 09/05/2021 13:06

I think the other benefits are means tested so people will have use savings up prior to applying for them.

OP posts:
MinesAPintOfTea · 09/05/2021 13:08

[quote Barbitchurate]@MinesAPintOfTea - I don't think anyone is attending job centres at the moment, and clearly there are people who are ill and cannot work and cannot do courses - however, it's frustrating to know a will have some weeks where I can do limited hours for job seeking and won't be given the support to do so - that means, for me, I will then stay on benefits longer.[/quote]
What support do you need for job seeking though? Courses etc have a cost so need a bit of commitment: difficult when you are sick.

Abouttimemum · 09/05/2021 13:16

I agree it needs an overhaul.
There isn’t a one size fits all.

And it’s hard to differentiate between those in genuine need and those taking the piss. And those that just have their budgeting priorities all over the place. I know plenty of those.

Spikeyball · 09/05/2021 13:18

"No option to have a SAHP or part time worker and be able to claim, those choices should be funded by the person making those decisions not others."

So what if no childcare exists for the child. There is no childcare that exists for children like mine.

SilkieAndMoonface · 09/05/2021 13:35

OP, you seem to be equating school and education. Lots of families home educate their children, and inevitably they might fall on hard times just like any other family. Would you penalise them for lack of school attendance?

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland · 09/05/2021 13:58

Most families claim benefits

I don't really think that's true, unless you are considering child benefit. Most people use the term "benefits" to mean universal credit or the historical benefits that are now under the UC umbrella. "Most" families are not on UC.

RetroCarper72534 · 09/05/2021 14:16

I agree there is no size fits all

I think that people who are unable to work due to illness are completely different from someone who is healthy that doesn't want to work because;
Don't want to do X type of job
Don't want to commute/travel
Don't want to work unsociable hours/shifts/nights
Don't want to work FT

Bythemillpond · 09/05/2021 14:18

Barbitchurate

Unsure of the current situation but for a long time there were booze bans in many areas of rural Australia, predominantly focused on reducing FAS in the TSAI communities (but also reducing domestic violence). Again surrounded by controversy, and in many cases it's backfired as people tend to drink methylated spirits as an alternative in some areas. It's being reviewed currently

This sounds rascist and short sighted. You don’t have to be a genius to think if you ban alcohol in a community people will turn to alternative sources.
Interested to know what the Australian government thought was going to happen.
People tugging their forelock and realising the error of their ways and being grateful the nanny state was looking after them or turning to mouthwash or meths

Bythemillpond that is the mortgage situation I am going to be in, and to be honest there's a huge difference between working 35 hours a week with a two hour commute each day, and doing a course part time or job seeking, do you agree
So if they did offer you budgeting advice what sort of advice would you be expecting if your mortgage is more than your benefits.
I think there are many people in that situation and it would be ludicrous to say that when these people go on benefits they have to get budgeting advice.

MyRight · 09/05/2021 14:20

This. There is vast support available IF that individual wants to accept it. Not everyone who is on benefits needs it or can cope with it.
Care leavers get support. Again they can choose to accept the advice or not.
Those with disabilities can get help and support to find work they can do, if they want to.

CorianderBee · 09/05/2021 14:48

Students are expected to take out a lob AND have their parents contribute AND most have part time jobs anyway (unless nursing, medicine etc).

You cannot limit benefits and say you can't get them if you smoke, so drugs, kids don't go to school etc because there are people who simply will not stop and then they will be homeless and their children or them in danger or starving.

We don't force people to obey with the threat of homelessness here in the U.K. if they want help there are tonnes of programs they can contact.

carolinesbaby · 09/05/2021 14:55

[quote Barbitchurate]@MinesAPintOfTea - I don't think anyone is attending job centres at the moment, and clearly there are people who are ill and cannot work and cannot do courses - however, it's frustrating to know a will have some weeks where I can do limited hours for job seeking and won't be given the support to do so - that means, for me, I will then stay on benefits longer.[/quote]
People absolutely are attending the job centre for face to face appointments now. Many appointments are being done by phone, but face to face IS happening.

carolinesbaby · 09/05/2021 14:57

[quote Barbitchurate]@MinesAPintOfTea - I don't think anyone is attending job centres at the moment, and clearly there are people who are ill and cannot work and cannot do courses - however, it's frustrating to know a will have some weeks where I can do limited hours for job seeking and won't be given the support to do so - that means, for me, I will then stay on benefits longer.[/quote]
You CAN access help to prepare for work and to find work when you are ready, regardless of which benefit you claim. I am not making this up!
You need to actually talk to your Jobcentre not not make assumptions.

Babyroobs · 09/05/2021 14:58

@Pemba

'contribution based and time limited' so what happens after that then. Families left to starve?

Or am I misunderstanding something?

People can often claim contributions based benefits and will be eligible for a top up of Universal credit as well , or if they have rent to pay they will get UC to help with the rent. Contributions based ESA is only limited to 12 months if you are not put in the support group after assessment. If you are put in the support group then it can continue indefinately. The only thing that would exclude people claiming Uc is if you have savings over 16k.
VexedofVirginiaWater · 09/05/2021 15:00

I know posters have said that budgeting has been taught as PHSE but I do not know anyone who has had that (perhaps it was taught so poorly they have forgotten it).

Thanks for that. Hmm

carolinesbaby · 09/05/2021 15:01

@Barbitchurate

I think the other benefits are means tested so people will have use savings up prior to applying for them.
Even on means-tested benefit, people are able to have some savings. The cuts off point for UC is £16k, though if you're have between £6k and £16k your UC will be reduced (off the top of my head, £4 a month less UC for every £250 over £6k - happy to be corrected if my memory is wrong)
safeornotsafe · 09/05/2021 15:06

MyRight. There isn't vast amounts of support. It maybe depends where you live but where I am trying to get support has pushed me over the edge and made me feel more ill. It's the worse thing worse than abuse and disability sometimes spending days making phone calls, people not replying to phone or email messages where they're being asked to help, appointments not being available. Also places legally supposed to do things but they dont including social care. There may be support officially but not reality. I'm not able to work currently but I know the biggest problem for disabled people who can work is employers discriminating because of work gaps or because of adjustments needed. I probably won't change but I wish people admitted it instead of blaming people by saying they don't want support.

Babyroobs · 09/05/2021 15:11

@safeornotsafe

MyRight. There isn't vast amounts of support. It maybe depends where you live but where I am trying to get support has pushed me over the edge and made me feel more ill. It's the worse thing worse than abuse and disability sometimes spending days making phone calls, people not replying to phone or email messages where they're being asked to help, appointments not being available. Also places legally supposed to do things but they dont including social care. There may be support officially but not reality. I'm not able to work currently but I know the biggest problem for disabled people who can work is employers discriminating because of work gaps or because of adjustments needed. I probably won't change but I wish people admitted it instead of blaming people by saying they don't want support.
What sort of help do you need? have you applied for universal credit (assuming you don't have savings over 16k ), have you applied for PIP, council tax support ? CAB can help with PIP forms and UC50 forms ( work capability forms ). Have you had a work capability assessment on UC ? being awarded PIP can passport you to other benefits.