To think the benefits system needs an overhaul...

[Barbitchurate]

So I am currently going through benefits applications and it's been pretty eye opening. I have three nationalities - a little outing - but have spent a fair amount of time in the UK now and have worked and contributed into the system, but I equally understand there's people who rely on benefits who cannot contribute prior to needing them.

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education; to be honest I didn't really look into it because the expectation was you got a job alongside your studies.

I had to claim benefits due to unemployment and a pandemic-delayed start to a new job - I didn't claim until I was basically hitting my overdraft limit and the job centre coach told me off for this. Apparently I should have claimed the moment I was giving my redundancy notice - opps on my part.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim, and this was brought out again in a documentary I was watching where a care leaver had spent all his UC in the first day of getting it, he was already living in a homeless hostel, but I sat watching and wondered how he would ever be able to improve his situation if nobody explained to him about budgeting and financial skills.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible).

[quote Barbitchurate]@RickiTarr Again, I haven't stereotyped anyone. You are the only poster on this thread who isn't engaging in a civl manner - you've called me facist and racist, perhaps it's time for you to leave the thread? You aren't really adding anything to do it apart from mislaid insults.[/quote]
Oh I think I’m being excessively civil, considering what you’ve said.

When three of us commented that it was inhumane/barbaric to make benefits for aborigines dependent on school attendance and vaccinations, because of the issues there might be with those things, you said;

would you prefer the higher levels of infant mortality within the ATSI communities then? Or would you prefer the levels were decreased, as they have done?

How would you have decreased those levels?

That’s a really chilling attitude.

How do we usually get our fellow citizens to behave in ways that are good for themselves and our society?

Why is it different because they’re First Nation communities?

How am I supposed not to interpret your various remarks in this thread about what you call “ATSI” groups as racist?

Budgeting and basic life skills is the parents job to teach a child not the governments role when a adult needs to claim benefits. We need to stop handholding people. It’s taught in schools and so it should be. But basic life skills are a parents role to teach.

There’s always plenty of help leaflets around but a job coaches job is to find you work not to send you for counselling for an addiction (alcohols drugs or cigarettes) that’s a doctors role.

Also what Would you have happen “do you smoke” yes- okay reduce money by x amount- then people will just lie.

I was taught it at school but the it was my mum that reinforced it. At school it’s a theoretical issue where as being involved in family money from an appropriate age made me aware. My mum would literally put the money in labelled envelopes and then we was able to see what was left for shopping and it wasn’t much!!

@Roomba that sounds like very poor (and yes, very patronising) advice indeed. Was it by any chance near the time when the nurse was on TV with her TV in the background and a lot of people kicked off that she was claiming benefits whilst owning a TV?

I disagree

After working full time for decades, paying tax & national insurance , I was made unemployed due to no fault of my own. I was entitled to £74 a week, contributions based JSA.

I believe asylum seekers are provided with free accommodation, free education, health care, legal & £35 approx per week. When they have not paid into the system

I was fortunate to find a new job, where I continue to pay into the system

Also what Would you have happen “do you smoke” yes- okay reduce money by x amount- then people will just lie

Or - the response would be "here's the local stop smoking service, you could save X amount if you reduced/stopped X cigarettes per day"

BTW my work coach did not find me my new job
I found it myself
However, she did authorise my JSA claim

@527Freed0m528 I would look into asylum seekers a bit more. Their weekly income is per family, not per individual, their accomodation is often unsafe (look at the recently barracks fire in Kent for instance), they have to move regularly between hosts - and many cannot access healthcare except emergency healthcare (Look into the Patients before Passports campaign).

Those who's asylum is granted will mostly go on to pay into the system in the future.

I am really happy you found a new job, unemployment is not a pleasant thing to go through!

Please explain what ATSI stands for as (like most UK people I imagine) I have never heard of the term.

YANBU to think the benefits system needs an overhaul, but from what you describe the Australian system sounds very paternalistic. No way should benefits be linked to children's vaccinations etc.

Budgeting advice would be helpful but how do you budget on the tiny amounts given? It is not enough to live on, which the authorities know. And even that is suspended on any excuse, known as 'sanctioning'. I believe job centre workers have targets for it. It's quite deliberate. The trouble is our benefits system is designed to be punitive. Yet people keep voting for this.

@safeornotsafe

Thank you RickiTarr. I really want to give up as it's worn me down and hard to keep going but I'm still trying to get out. I have a DV worker but she's so busy and hard to get hold of but it's not her fault and I hope she can help. Social services refused to help. GP says they should but I can't force them. I don't think Covid has made a difference for me because area I live housing already very bad. It's made it harder to go to shared accommodation like refuges because of the risk of vulnerable but the problem is for after refuge anyway. Maybe it's also made DV workers more busy so maybe Covid has made it worse a bit but the housing is the main problem and was very bad before covid. I don't understand why people think it's to do with maintaining a budget or tenancy when it's just not having a budget or tenancy that's the problem. I know some people need more help but they lump us all in together to try to blame us for our situations. There's a thread about buy to let where landlords are saying they won't have tenants on benefits. I understand why because benefits are not enough to pay the rent although I have higher rate so can afford it but anyway the problem is councils refuse to believe that and keep saying to just private rent. I find the lack of honesty harder than abuse sometimes and I know I sound bitter but I feel like if I was killed, people would say things like if only she had the courage to leave when actually leaving is not possible without somewhere safe to be.

Hold out for social housing if you can. You need the security to regroup, and the stability to cope with your disability.

Do you know that if you’re resettling after DV you have the right to apply to any local authority you fancy? You don’t need a local connection, they have to accept you. Are you able to relocate? Perhaps you could identify somewhere with much better housing supply? Somewhere familiar or with good facilities? Maybe your DV worker could advise?

I wish you luck, in any case. Everything is so underfunded.

@527Freed0m528 that's what I am doing - trying to look myself and apply for things outside of the JC

Students aren't entitled to benefits in the holidays unless they qualify for pip or are financially independent of parents. Or parents themselves.

Plenty of people who don't claim benefits need budgeting advice.

I work in supported housing. 11 years ago I had a caseload of 15 with low to medium support needs. Lots of time to support people around financial education and getting into work or training.

Now my colleagues in the same job have caseloads of 26, all with medium to high support needs. Their time is taken up with the basics of safeguarding and ensuring residents don't get evicted or starve. Those with low support needs don't qualify for any housing assistance which stops them getting into work or finishing studies.

I'm lucky, I'm in a privately funded project. The government has slashed funding to homelessness services making it harder for people to get the guidance and support they need to leave homelessness behind and become independent of the benefits system. Costing much more money in the long run......

@Barbitchurate you cannot claim benefits as a full time students unless your are disabled or have children. It’s not even any easy benefit fraud to commit as you will be registered as a full time student and would quickly be found out. I’m not sure what students you know but certainly the students at my DD’s universities worked in holidays and never claimed a penny.

@TreesoftheField yep exactly. Have no idea where the OP got that from.

I claim a benefit( carers allowance). I don't need patronising lectures.

My dd lived off me and her student loan, never once tried to claim benefits.

A quick Google shows 35,000 people applied for asylum in 2020. This was 11% higher than the previous year for UK

Actually, the UK has a good record for assisting refugees, asylum seekers & giving foreign aid
Some other countries in the world are not so generous

We also provide NHS heathcare

@Pemba Aboriginal and Torres Straits Islanders.

The reason that benefits were linked to vaccinations was because there were a huge number of children dying from preventable disease (whopping cough and pneumonia); and the risk unvaccinated children were posing to vulnerable children. The statistics at the time were horrendous for underlying conditions within ATSI communities - extremely high levels of FAS for instance, homelessness - both factors that increase child mortality as well.

Doctors were given an incentive to reach out, educate, and vaccinate - so it was a kick of their arse to actually do their jobs rather than just continuing to call the communities "too hard to reach".

@cinammonbuns - you absolutely can - yes not every student can, but some students can - the examples I gave above, particularly last year with the work placement happened to many students I knew last year - particularly those on postgrad level degrees.

@cinammonbuns can also claim with no parental support as well - there's a few different options, but they are options.

Shocked at what I've just read tbh

I really want the stability RickiTarr I'm not young anymore and really want somewhere safe and stable. I'm trying to apply to a council away from home but they're messing me around so much. It's put me off going there and my confidence was already very low but I'll keep trying. My local MP don't think he'll be help. Safe seat one who supports cutting benefits and social housing. Maybe I should try him but don't know if worth it.

Barbitchurate my local cab wasn't super helpful and they were actually the opposite. Just getting an appointment was difficult and took a month but I know maybe it's different in different areas.
I don't understand why you're wanting to be signed off if you are well enough to look for work. You can just stay on the JSA and have sick note just for the day of the operation. The courses the Jobcentre have aren't helpfulness anyway as they're if you can't write a CV or can't spell or baduc things that most people claiming benefits already know.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim

Possibly because a lot of people who claim have more outgoings than benefits pay.

How would you tell people to budget if their UC was £550 per month but their mortgage was £700.
What advice would you give them about budgeting

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things

What happens if you have children who refuse to go to school. Are you saying their benefits are stopped. Are you saying in Australia if you are partial to a glass of wine or a couple of smokes per day you are forced to give that up because it doesn’t conform with the governments prescribed lifestyle of someone claiming benefits. Or is there a scale or list of what is or isn’t allowed in your lifestyle that if you lose your job you have to conform to. Eg if you care claiming benefits you may only drink 2 glasses of wine every 3rd day or you have to attend a stop smoking course and give up ciggies because you have started to claim benefits.

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible

If you are signed off as too sick to be able to work then why would you be doing courses? Either you can work or you can’t

It might not be a perfect system but I think it is preferable to going down the route of only being able to get benefits if you can prove a HCP stuck a needle in your arm.

Actually our treatment of asylum seekers in the UK is absolutely horrific

I would disagree with this. A refugee granted asylum status has their visa costs 100% waived, they pay no NHS surcharge and can use it, they receive housing benefit and UC, children get free education and school meals, they can access student finance and go to university, after being in the system a bit, they get a work visa for free and after 10yrs residency can apply for citizenship.

Contrast that to a regular immigrant who pays thousand for their visa, pays thousands more in NHS surcharge, cannot access student finance, cannot claim UC or housing benefit, and every 30months must pay thousands more to renew work visa and NHS surcharge until they have residency for 10yrs. If they lose their job, they can only claim new style JSA. Nothing else no UC. And must live off savings or end up homeless and then deported.

I know people will think I'm making excuses but I'm not. The council legally meant to accept me but they're not. It's been several months and still not accepted. They keep ignoring calls or emails or asking for more information and then changing their minds about what information they want. They won't accept DV and social worker support evidence and say it's not enough. They keep messing me around basically and it's worn me down as much as when the abuse is bad. I know I need to try somewhere else but now have to start all over again and probably go through same thing. They may be doing things they're not meant to do but what can people like me do about it. It's too dangerous to make formal complaints. Still with violent partner and still disability issues. I can't make a fuss and the council knows it. I know some people need budget help but I think it's an excuse to blame homeless people when they get lumped in as if all the same. I'm educated and work experienced. I am very good at budgeting but I can't rebuild or recover without a safe home. I understand that probably won't happen but I wish people were more honest and stopped saying it's because people can't budget or things like that.

@Bythemillpond Unsure of the current situation but for a long time there were booze bans in many areas of rural Australia, predominantly focused on reducing FAS in the TSAI communities (but also reducing domestic violence). Again surrounded by controversy, and in many cases it's backfired as people tend to drink methylated spirits as an alternative in some areas. It's being reviewed currently.

@Bythemillpond that is the mortgage situation I am going to be in, and to be honest there's a huge difference between working 35 hours a week with a two hour commute each day, and doing a course part time or job seeking, do you agree?