To think the benefits system needs an overhaul...

[Barbitchurate]

So I am currently going through benefits applications and it's been pretty eye opening. I have three nationalities - a little outing - but have spent a fair amount of time in the UK now and have worked and contributed into the system, but I equally understand there's people who rely on benefits who cannot contribute prior to needing them.

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education; to be honest I didn't really look into it because the expectation was you got a job alongside your studies.

I had to claim benefits due to unemployment and a pandemic-delayed start to a new job - I didn't claim until I was basically hitting my overdraft limit and the job centre coach told me off for this. Apparently I should have claimed the moment I was giving my redundancy notice - opps on my part.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim, and this was brought out again in a documentary I was watching where a care leaver had spent all his UC in the first day of getting it, he was already living in a homeless hostel, but I sat watching and wondered how he would ever be able to improve his situation if nobody explained to him about budgeting and financial skills.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

The other thing is, I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months. This automatically means that when I am well, I will most likely have to be switched to the non-illness benefit (JSA?) for a period of time to job hunt - wouldn't it be better that there was a system that helped people who were unwell look for appropriate work for their condition, so that when they improved their was minimum time spent on JSA (naturally, if the individual wanted this, I do appreciate some illnesses mean this is not possible).

I think some are - I know some of the ones I have taught in first year university setting did - most did not though. Small group that I can base this on over only five years however.

I claimed benefits last year (due to pandemic job loss) I didn't need budgeting advice, my kids are fine thank you etc - I lost my job that's all and the system offered me advice on producing a cv, starting my own business and free courses. My kids are students and no they don't work because they are studying, that's their job! Dd2 in particular is working 35+ hours a week on her uni work, plays sport semi pro level pre covid and has ccf I'm not going to insist she gets a bar job!

If I was so unwell I had to be signed off sick no way should I made to look for work

@LakieLady that is really, really shit - the support you have outlined is the kind of support I think should be available / offered for all.

6 weeks a time is awful, you can barely build up any trust with anyone to tell them the things that are probably the ones that you actually need to be focused on.

I just feel it's a never-ending loop for many at the moment, and the pandemic will only worsen it.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim (and no, it was not easy), so perhaps it is the right time to offer additional services to them as well, particularly with a wrap around on budgeting and finance.

Oh where to start? We don’t have quite that culture here. For one thing, benefits levels in Aus are much, much higher than here.

It’s also incredibly rude to assume people are feckless, addicted or lacking basic skills because they’ve hit a tough patch.

Maybe offering extra help to long term claimants would make sense, but actually I believe assistance with job search is very flexible and onward referral to specialist schemes can be made. I’m a bit hazy on the details but there was a Channel 4 reality-doc called The Jobcentre that was good and might still be available to stream.

The British are less comfortable anyway with what you’d call sticky beaking. You should read about what happened when ID cards were mooted about 15 years back.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits. It could perhaps go a long way to alleviated the loop of generational benefits claims if done correctly, but what would correct look like?

As I understand it, a lot of that conditionality came about as part of attempts to help/compel aboriginal parents to do certain things, didn’t it? So the latest episode in a really unfortunate history of telling First Nations people what to do?

Research here determined that multi-generational benefit dependency couldn’t be found to be studied further. It’s either a myth or statistically insignificant.

Our biggest problems now are high housing & living costs and low NMW. So we have a large population of working poor, and also (since the coalition government got nasty) a lot of very poor people who are too disabled to work.

So your underlying assumptions are just plain wrong, I think. Which is strange, from someone signing on herself.

Lady, yes there have been huge cuts under austerity, and that is going to continue for some time to come.

I don’t think the solution to that is to move the solution over to benefits advisors, who would have a conflict of interests. Are they there to advocate for the client or to save the service money?

0/10 goady

Benefits should not be contingent on parents behaviour, there are too many children living low the poverty line.

Training and indeed any reforms cost money you know.

Children in care and care leavers are offered lots of support, this includes budgeting and money management. You can tell a teenager to budget it doesn't mean they will listen 🤦🏻‍♀️

Oh and my DD's had financial planning, budgeting etc as part of pshe in school aged 15 ish. However surely some things are for the parents! Care leavers should have support from their social worker for this sort of stuff, but I'm sure it does vary a bit

If I was so unwell I had to be signed off sick no way should I made to look for work

If you read what I wrote, this is not what I was saying - I was saying the option should be there if the individual wanted to... Ie so that they could start a job as soon as they were better without having to go through the hassle of swapping benefits and staying on benefits for longer than they needed/wanted to.

Do you mean university level sport when you say semi-pro?

The first thing that struck me when I moved to the UK was that undergraduate students here are not expected to work - the expectation is for students to take out a student loan. Where I came from the expectation was made clear that you had a job, student loans and grants were quite complicated and definitely didn't cover all of your university education

I think that student loans covering all the tuition costs and a good % of the maintenance is a great thing about the U.K. It supports the learning disabled/ physically disabled young adults who literally cannot be a FT student at university level AND have a PT or FT job on the side. What you describe is actually very ableist and discriminatory.

I'm a little shocked though that there is no budgeting / financial sessions or advice when making a claim,

Why should there be? Are people claiming benefits more likely to be unable to do basic math or spend too much? You know that most people on benefits are only on them temporarily.

When making my claim I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking. To me it feels like this could be the time that people are offered support for these things - they are reaching out already to make a claim

I think you are stereotyping here. Most people lose their jobs and need benefits short term due to redundancy or businesses going bankrupt or injury/illness. Not because they drink too much or do drugs. And this is intrusive and not really relevant because it doesn’t affect the £ you get either way.

In Australia benefits are linked to certain things (vaccination, school attendance) in many states - I'm not totally sure I agree with all of this but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefits.

Glad to see you don’t think this should be linked to benefit eligibility. The only thing I think could be improved is making free school meals automatic for benefits recipients so they should not have to apply separately.

I am actually going to be signed off due to ill health, due to an impending procedure. I've been told that in that time I won't get any job centre support as I will be signed off - so despite the fact I will have a return to work date (or fitness to work date) two months ahead, I won't be able to attend courses, or look for employment or get employment advice during those months.

But you can still look for employment and apply for jobs. You still get support, you just won’t be required to attend any job centre classes or show you’ve been applying to keep your benefits as they will be an illness type one, instead of JSA.

Why do all people need to be taught budgeting? Adults should be sensible enough to budget themselves, it's not rocket science.

@LibertyMole

Lady, yes there have been huge cuts under austerity, and that is going to continue for some time to come.

I don’t think the solution to that is to move the solution over to benefits advisors, who would have a conflict of interests. Are they there to advocate for the client or to save the service money?

And also a shocking number of them, particularly in the more expensive cities in the UK, have to claim UC themselves.

[quote Barbitchurate]@LibertyMole there was zero package of support around the UC, care leaver example I gave - hence why I used it as an example. I've actually heard this story repeated many, many times - it's not a sole individual case.[/quote]
It’s social (children’s) services’ job to educate and “launch” their young people, arrange their housing, show them how to claim benefits, set up home, move into work, training or further education. A social worker should be overseeing all that. Not the DWP.

If you don’t understand the system maybe stop commenting?

Think of all the problems around DV for example, where partners forcibly moved in a property, refusing to leave and abuses a claimant.

Does the advisor get them support to remove the abuser or do they report the claimant for a cohabiting benefit reduction?

Advocates need to be fully independent from the DWP and other agencies.

No -one can stop you looking for work, they probably just meant that if you are signed off sick, your work coach isn't going to pressure you to look for work.

Your thread has reminded me of this (maybe take the opportunity to try to throw off some of these controlling Aussie public policy instincts?);

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-56544429

I haven't made any assumptions about anyone signing on, have I?

The Australian Government for years ignored the ATSI populations - look at the level of child mortality, school attendance, homelessness etc. The current system actually hasn't solved a lot of what it was meant to, but it has improved some areas - most of which centre around child health and education, particularly important for girls considering the single most determining factor in the health of their own children will be the level of education they attained.

@RickiTarr I read that earlier - it was sent to me - haven't seen the full documentary yet, if anyone know where I can, do let me know.

I am not saying it's DWPs job - I am saying (and have said) it's an opportunity to offer support and engagement with services...

Also there is budgeting support available through organizations and charities such as CAB, CAP etc, but the onus is on people to access that themselves, it should not be compulsory for everyone because many people can adequately budget themselves. Of course if you are going form a decent wage to just benefits like huge numbers of people who have lost there jobs due to covid are having to, then you are going to struggle if you can no longer meet payments that you could previously meet.
I think there is a lot wrong with the benefits system, but I think some parts of Uc are good. Disability benefits are problematic - way too hard for some to claim leaving people in hardship and yet many others seem to get them and honestly I wonder how.

I was never taught budgeting in school, nor finance - and none of my UK counterparts were too (unless they chose to study economics). I've taught first year university students and none of them have a bloody clue about budgeting, nor do the vast majority of them work (and it's not a work placement type degree).

And yet I clearly remember teaching this as part of the school's PHSCE course in the nineties and noughties - I don't know about later because I didn't teach PHSCE then. Schools have tried to cover this but curriculum time is at a premium and they can't be blamed if they prioritise subjects such as exam subjects which lead to qualifications.

Why are you comparing Australia with the UK?

I wasn't asked about any lifestyle factors - nothing about children's attendance in school (I don't have kids yet, but I have found out this is not asked), nothing about drug use, alcohol use or smoking.

I don’t understand this? Should children be made to suffer because their parents don’t want to send them to school? Drug addicts & alcoholics have to put roofs over their heads too don’t they? Not every alcoholic spends all of their money on drink and drugs and lives on the streets. Or if it was just a declare it kind of thing then surely they’d lie to get the money anyway?

@RickiTarr would you prefer the higher levels of infant mortality within the ATSI communities then? Or would you prefer the levels were decreased, as they have done?

How would you have decreased those levels?

"but I do think that systems could be changed so that child health and education were in some way linked but did not necessarily determine benefit."

How about a system where all children are given access to adequate health care and education. I think this is a better use of public funds.

@Barbitchurate

I haven't made any assumptions about anyone signing on, have I?

The Australian Government for years ignored the ATSI populations - look at the level of child mortality, school attendance, homelessness etc. The current system actually hasn't solved a lot of what it was meant to, but it has improved some areas - most of which centre around child health and education, particularly important for girls considering the single most determining factor in the health of their own children will be the level of education they attained.

Of course you’ve made assumptions.

You’ve assumed benefit claimants need help with stopping smoking, with budgeting, etc etc

You’ve made a stinking great assumption that there’s intergenerational benefit dependency that needs to be broken.

You’re doing this unconvincing “on the fence” coy thing along the lines of “why are the UK doing the fascist, racist shit that Aus does, that I might or might not agree with?”.

Goady sucker.

I work in the jobcenter in Denmark. The help that you get depends on which group you are in.
Insured unemployed - courses, work experience, help with applications, occasionally help to navigate the system and joblog, occasional referrals to alcohol/drug services. Expected to take a 37 hr job. Very much temporary for the vast majority.
Uninsured job ready - all of the above, plus mentor. Expected to take jobs from 25-37 hours. Generally a bit more going on. Hopefully temporary, but a lot are in and out like a revolving door and STILL dont pay unemployment insurance.
Uninsured activity ready - depends entirely on their needs but generally these people have a lot of shit going on in their life. I would say every 2nd woman in this category was a survivor of childhood abuse, or domestic abuse.
Sickness benefit - I have no fucking clue what those advisors actually do. The legal framework doesnt seem to compliment the other groups at all. Currently we are collecting evidence for our boss to present their boss on how their approach doesnt help us and our clients at all.

No system is perfect. Statistically generation after generation on benefits is the exception rather than the norm. But it tends to happen with the uninsured acrivity ready.