Moral Dilemma

[freerunner75]

My partner and I have been together 12 years. Both married previously, my marriage ended horrifically, my husband blew a tonne of my savings and left me in £25k debt. My partners marriage was similar, his ex left with an extremely large settlement.

We moved in together to a rented place with a view to buying something together. His marital home was sold to settle the divorce agreement, but he had one other property in his name at the time which he kept and rented out. The house we now live in - was bought at an extremely low rate from family. I had no say in this and was not given the option to be a part of it as he classes it as his 'inheritance' and is protective over the equity given what happened with his divorce. I pay half towards the bills and we have both designed and improved the house since we have been here - i have paid for only soft furnishings and a few bits of furniture as I earn a lot less than him and most of my money goes towards the bills and my kids. The house we live in has tripled in value since we have been here and made improvements.

So, we are not married, no mortgage together, no life insurance for each other, nothing. Together 12 years.

The whole lack of financial security is a big issue to me and has caused us endless arguments over the years. But he won't budge. Recently we had a huge bust up and I was looking into my options but they are few given my current situation and budget limitations.

Am willing to take a bashing on this - however am I being unreasonable to request for him to set aside some money for me in case our relationship does break down irretrievably so that I have a safety net? I was thinking perhaps £1000 per year for every year we have lived together - signed and agreed by both and by a solicitor so we both know where we stand?

I am currently earning more than I have for a while and am starting to be able to save again - but my biggest concern is that if we do finish.. i am out on the streets with nothing to my name despite contributing for years... yet he is sitting pretty. I know it sounds bloody awful, but it would take a lot of stress off me and our relationship and I don't think I am being unreasonable.

But I am expecting to be told that I am..... thoughts please.

The average monthly spend on utilities in the UK is £194.02

My gas and electric bill is more than that.

Add in same again + a bit more for my council tax

There must be a lot of people lighting and heating their single room homes by candle light to get it that low.

Even friend who is single and has the lowest outgoings I know spends £600 per month

@Bythemillpond

The average monthly spend on utilities in the UK is £194.02

My gas and electric bill is more than that.

Add in same again + a bit more for my council tax

There must be a lot of people lighting and heating their single room homes by candle light to get it that low.

Even friend who is single and has the lowest outgoings I know spends £600 per month

Not just me then!

My gas and electric is £69pm, and I'm in credit. I live in a three bed terrace.

My water is £17.
Broadband is £3pm. But I pay for the landline up front at £200per year.

Then council tax is £112.

My water bill is £65 regardless of how many people live here.

My broadband is £45 as we have shit Internet so have to pay for zooped up broadband

My last gas and electricity bill was something like £210
My council tax is £270

Then I have house insurance, several cars and vans to tax and insure, life insurance and petrol. (No public transport in the area)

Last year the pack of cards came tumbling down as every one of us (4 adults) lost all our work and UC handed us £550 per month for Dh and I and dd and Ds got a smaller amount each.

£194.02 I can spend on petrol

We pay something like £1000 a month including rent, council tax and all bills (excluding a car that is shared and our mobiles at about a tenner a month and food). We are in a nice 3 bed house, band c. So probably the op could manage something similar on her 20k income, there wouldn't be anything spare for extra cars or pet insurance though. But they might not need a car at all if they lived somewhere else.
I think that if the op lived alone she wouldn't be able to save much either, at least not without a big drop in standard of living (no idea what benefits she might get).

I can see why the partner isn't keen on getting married, he doesn't want to take that risk a second time, and as there are no shared children it's a sensible choice. But he can still ensure that the op has a chance to save up for herself - but then he might argue that he had given her that chance, if she hadn't spent huge sums on driving lessons, cars, pet insurance etc. That must have come to several thousand a year.

This is a difficult one as I sort of understand where he is coming from and think I would feel similar. I presume paying half of the bills there is less than it would cost for you to rent as the property is mortgaged (generally lower) and you are splitting things between two despite you having children (which it sounds from your OP are not shared) and bearing in mind if you lived alone you would need to pay the entirely. So I understand why things are as they are. I would be frustrated in your position but then I guess you have the option to leave and have a relationship where you don't live together. You don't say in the OP you're on a lower income due to the relationship in anyway so its not even as though he owes you for your sacrifices I.e. If you gave up work to look after joint children or to help further his career by managing the home etc I would totally see how it would be appropriate for him to support you more and provide for you if things don't work out.

The only thing that is perhaps unfair is that you are paying towards an asset that you have no interest in - but as I say the other option is to move out which likely will be more expensive. You mention only paying for soft furnishings therefore it sounds like you haven't improved the value of the property by paying for structural changes or fittings, so I'm not even sure you should have a share in the asset to be honest as you haven't increased its value.

Also - the idea that the OP would have been in a position to build joint assets with this man is a pipe dream. What money would she have put into a joint property? What would her contribution have been

Exactly. No assets before to share or add to the pot and before moving in she wasn’t paying all her own costs anyway as was claiming benefits.

The children have been plenty old enough not to need childcare for some time leaving the OP free to work more, take a second job etc if financing a joint home together was so important or having savings.

you are paying towards an asset that you have no interest in

Except she isn’t. She’s living rent free.

I can’t give any advice but you have my empathy for your situation. I Feel that you gave it your absolute uncynical best at building what at least felt like home. It’s a hard slog paying off the past mistake and you probably weren’t ready for battle you just wanted love. It does manifest if you take action towards it but perhaps now is the time to turn it towards yourself. Your a giver and you just need to be aligned with someone who doesn’t manipulate that. You can’t change being generous hearted and giving something your all so if I were to advise I would say don’t regret the 12 years of being in your eyes absolutely fully commited to loving someone. I think you needed someone to look after you for a change after your past experience even if it was a mirage?or their version on their terms. Sometimes in life that can make do for the meantime but now you know you need to be realising that actual vision for yourself so you will Xx All you do is make peace with the past. I think the 12 years was a time to lick your wounds and focus on creating a home anywhich way you could which you have achieved. Now your ready for your hopes and dreams for your future. Just believe enough in yourself to invest in yourself 🤗 it’s very easy to pour it into others when you doubt yourself after a bad experience. My mother was in your very situation and turned it around . We women often get led down deadends or up the garden path because we don’t truly believe in ourselves being worth investing in if our partner has behaviour patterns that we feel confirms that! No shit Sherlock! The fool should have married you and set things up properly allowing full protection of his assets ( sometimes it is the wife but they haven’t understood that yet 😂)

And that’s what made me think perhaps we should both agree an ‘escape’ plan.. for want of a better phrase... so that if it does turn nasty ever (god forbid) .. there is something in place that I can rely on
This makes no sense at all. Your relationship is volatile. This is why you want something aside just in case. Surely that’s also the exact reason why he wouldn’t want to?

If you separate on bad terms, as is the norm, why would he want to ensure you can get some of his money? He is probably fine sharing whilst you are together, not if you leave him or he decides he wants out.

If you remain on good terms, he’d probably help you anyway.

He is right not to consider marriage if your relationship is volatile. Marriage is on the assumption that the relationship is strong and you’ll be together forever.

He rightly wants to protect himself just as much as you want to protect yourself.

I think that you wanted your children to have a family with a father figure because their Dad is not even contributing and I think you achieved that for them growing up and your taking issue now because he isn’t presently as you would hope in a father figure hence the issue with how he treated your son and how invested he is in their future. You did provide it though which they wouldn’t have had if you had gone into it like a business transaction as some people are advising in hindsight . You kept a roof over your children’s heads and mucked in with the business. Hoping it would all flourish as a unit. It had the mechanics of a marriage without the paperwork but your contribution is to your children’s upbringing you have given them the best lifestyle you could now its time to focus in other areas

@CoRhona

When did the 'view to buying something together' stop being a reality?

It has never been a reality. The OP wanted it to happen, but given the fact that the OP has never, in the past 12 years, been in a position to contribute to either a deposit or a mortgage shows that it was wishful thinking on her part imo.

Hmmm - that looked like I was responding to a recent comment! Weird

I think Darlingx makes some good points. Even if OP has cleared off and some of us are still investing in this thread it brings up some goid points about how people view themselves and their relationships with the opposite sex and money.
There are givers and takers and sometimes people can work as a team.
I like all the suggestions that women should value themselves more. Very true. But very hard if you were brought up to think you are shit and that keeps getting reinforced by your relationships.

I think you would be mad to start making financial demands at this stage of your relationship. I think, as others suggest, you should work towards a level of independence for the long term. In your position, with children, if I cared about the man I would do my best to make the relationship work.

@Minezatea

I have commented on this thread and have been following it with fascination largely born, I think, out of a complete inability to understand why someone would be entitled to assets in this instance. They do not share kids, the OP's info about her contribution and where her money goes, makes it clear that she has only spent money on things which she would have needed to if she were living on her own anyway. She appears to have suffered no disadvantage other than having chosen to work for OH for free (which I expect she regrets) and indeed she has been able to live a lifestyle which her income would not usually support (e.g. being able to buy and run a car for each of her children as well as for herself). His assets were not built up together, they were inherited assets and clearly left to him and not to both him and OP. If the genders were reversed would people really expect a woman to share with her male partner in this scenario? On what basis would that be reasonable? It actually really scares me to think that if I was in the OP's position, just by the very fact of living with someone, they would be entitled to take the assets I had build up before meeting them. What am I not understanding here? I am leaving aside the issue of the DPs drinking and firing of the son, not as I don't see the as worrying, just as I don't see them as relevant to the financial question.

If you have read all the posts clearly you will see that I have absolutely no intention or wish to try and claim any of his inheritance. That would be ghastly and improper., all I am upset about is the disparity between a married couple and someone in my situation.

Even had we married I would still have insisted on (and have discussed to this degree with him previously) getting an agreement legally put in place to protect his inheritance and any equity that belonged to him prior to us moving in to the property together. I would have then only been ‘entitled’ to a share of any additional equity the property we live in acquired over the period of us being here.

We are both very clear of that., his other property is solely for his children, and any equity in this place (which was substantial upon purchase) would also legally be his for him to do whatever he wants with.

Sadly I have never had the opportunity to make that arrangement, and here I am.. with massive egg on my face and desperately wishing I hadn’t trusted him and believed in what I thought was our dream.. marriage through life for lifetime partnership.. not just for a share in equity.

@Darlingx

Thank you so much. Xx

I'm not sure what you are saying about additional equity. If the house is his then it is always his, not matter how much it is worth. If it was worth 100K when you moved in and 200K now that does not mean that 50K is yours. Is that what you meant.

PS OP, I don't think you have egg on your face. Things did not go as you hoped and it took you a while to realise that but that is very normal. Life gets busy and we don't always have time to stop and take stock. I think you do need to do something yourself now to secure your future but don't give yourself a hard time about the decisions you made over the last few years.

@vivainsomnia

And that’s what made me think perhaps we should both agree an ‘escape’ plan.. for want of a better phrase... so that if it does turn nasty ever (god forbid) .. there is something in place that I can rely on This makes no sense at all. Your relationship is volatile. This is why you want something aside just in case. Surely that’s also the exact reason why he wouldn’t want to?

If you separate on bad terms, as is the norm, why would he want to ensure you can get some of his money? He is probably fine sharing whilst you are together, not if you leave him or he decides he wants out.

If you remain on good terms, he’d probably help you anyway.

He is right not to consider marriage if your relationship is volatile. Marriage is on the assumption that the relationship is strong and you’ll be together forever.

He rightly wants to protect himself just as much as you want to protect yourself.

It’s been 12 years though. The optimism has diminished somewhat perhaps.since the things they agreed on haven’t happened.

@Minezatea

I'm not sure what you are saying about additional equity. If the house is his then it is always his, not matter how much it is worth. If it was worth 100K when you moved in and 200K now that does not mean that 50K is yours. Is that what you meant.

Sorry I probably haven’t made that point very clearly..

I meant as If we were both at that point on the mortgage together and paid towards the mortgage together after a legal agreement was drawn up protecting all of his equity/investment be that. From that point forward the property would be joint. And any equity if we were to sell/split would then be apportioned after his investment/inheritance at point of his purchase.. was taken out. Does that make sense?

I honestly feel like I must be living in a dream world. Lol

all I am upset about is the disparity between a married couple and someone in my situation.

As a woman with assets who never wants to get married, your plan would mean that if I ever live with someone they would become entitled to a share of my assets. That's taking away choice from me.

You have the choice - get married/CP, or stay and don't, or leave. The first gives the asset share. If the dp doesn't want the first why should they have all the responsibility of marriage foisted on them if they have chosen not to do it?

The fact you and he were never on the same page re marriage and asset sharing is the issue, not the "disparity". That disparity is important, it's his right not to share his assets.

Your issue is communication.

I think that people who want the perks of marriage shouldn't settle for someone who is not interested in marrying one.

It's not a choice because you cant make it for the man.