Moral Dilemma

[freerunner75]

My partner and I have been together 12 years. Both married previously, my marriage ended horrifically, my husband blew a tonne of my savings and left me in £25k debt. My partners marriage was similar, his ex left with an extremely large settlement.

We moved in together to a rented place with a view to buying something together. His marital home was sold to settle the divorce agreement, but he had one other property in his name at the time which he kept and rented out. The house we now live in - was bought at an extremely low rate from family. I had no say in this and was not given the option to be a part of it as he classes it as his 'inheritance' and is protective over the equity given what happened with his divorce. I pay half towards the bills and we have both designed and improved the house since we have been here - i have paid for only soft furnishings and a few bits of furniture as I earn a lot less than him and most of my money goes towards the bills and my kids. The house we live in has tripled in value since we have been here and made improvements.

So, we are not married, no mortgage together, no life insurance for each other, nothing. Together 12 years.

The whole lack of financial security is a big issue to me and has caused us endless arguments over the years. But he won't budge. Recently we had a huge bust up and I was looking into my options but they are few given my current situation and budget limitations.

Am willing to take a bashing on this - however am I being unreasonable to request for him to set aside some money for me in case our relationship does break down irretrievably so that I have a safety net? I was thinking perhaps £1000 per year for every year we have lived together - signed and agreed by both and by a solicitor so we both know where we stand?

I am currently earning more than I have for a while and am starting to be able to save again - but my biggest concern is that if we do finish.. i am out on the streets with nothing to my name despite contributing for years... yet he is sitting pretty. I know it sounds bloody awful, but it would take a lot of stress off me and our relationship and I don't think I am being unreasonable.

But I am expecting to be told that I am..... thoughts please.

People are certainly being rather harsh on this thread. It’s easy to point and blame and say ‘why didn’t you XYZ’ but that’s the benefit of hindsight.

People would never say the same thing to someone who chose to move in with, marry and have a child with an abuser would they? They’re all mistakes ....

@freerunner75 As has been said, hindsight really is a wonderful thing. I think from reading your posts, it's probably fair to say that both you and he had very clear intentions from the start. Generalising, a lot of women 'hope' when they enter into a relationship. Some things aren't exactly what they want, but they 'hope' they will change. I suspect that's what's happened here - the logical part of you knew he didn't want to get married and share finances with you, but the romantic part of you hoped that would change if you just loved him hard enough.

Do have that conversation - it's not grabby to suggest his business provides you with a pension. You have been providing work, you're not asking for something for 'nothing'. This way is really tax efficient for all parties, and it's practical. I expect from all your posts that something practical could be something he would appreciate, if framed in the right way.

Getting things like pensions and life assurance in place gives you some protection for the future. It doesn't give you all of what you want, which is effectively a nest egg for fleeing if things get bad. But you can start building that up now (I'm assuming an exit isn't immediately on the cards) and start taking control of your future now.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's right that someone earning so much less is worse off for entering into a relationship, so I do understand where you're coming from to an extent. The trouble is, you should really have had a frank conversation about the benefits you would lose by moving in together, so he could have decided by himself that he would rather have made those up for the joy of living with you. I suspect that wasn't something you wanted or thought you need to talk about, because you were focussed on the romance of living together. Like I said... hindsight.

Sometimes we go along with a situation for a while then suddenly 'wake up' and I think that's happened to you. It's positive that you're making plans to look after yourself and your kids in the future, and that's still compatible with staying in a relationship with this man. Maybe you could have done things differently in the last 12 years, but they got you to where you are today, and by the sounds of it, that's in a relationship that you do want to work at keeping. So it's not all bad.

Enjoy the relationship for what it is. Accept the relationship for what it isn't.

I do wish you happiness and financial security, OP. I think if people read all your posts together, it's a bit clearer where you're coming from and why, and I don't think you're unreasonable to want to have some security over the future.

@thelastlotus @agreatmistake

Thank you both.. I really appreciate your words and wisdom.

@agreatmistake

Great post.

People can be very harsh and jump to quick conclusions, but this is far more nuanced when you read the OPs posts in full.

Another prime example of someone who has walked headlong until living with someone with the vague promise of marriage only to be somewhat stunned and upset when a) it doesn't materialise and b) they realise they have no financial protection.

You may not like the fact that marriage gives you security but that's the way it is. I'm floored by how many apparently intelligent women fail to realise this.

I have rtft and I still can't understand any reason why OP feels entitled to any part of her OH's assets. It looks like had she not moved in with him, she'd be in much the same precarious financial position. I think, OP, that you need to stop expecting him to provide a safety net and start thinking of how to provide one for yourself. Your kids are older now so that should cut down on how much they cost you. They should be working and contributing if they have left education so I would suggest a review of how the costs in the house are divied up which might well mean that you pay less now and therefore can save the difference. When there's just the two of you left, it should be 50% each. If this does not leave you enough to save you will have to reduce the social expenses and either he can pay for them or they don't happen. If it's his house, obviously don't pay anything for repairs, that's his responsibility. I'd also suggest discussing what happens if he dies. I guess at this point that the house goes to his kids but might it be reasonable for there to be a period of time when you can live there on your own if you want to so that if the worst happens you are not also suddenly homeless? It is, of course, unbalanced, but he earns a lot and has inherited a lot where you have a relatively poorly paid job, no inheritance and an ex-husband who pissed away your financial security so it will be unbalanced and that's just life.

I think that you do have a right to the equity in the house which you have contributed towards over 12years - go and see a solicitor and find out where you stand and start to compile a dossier of every item you’ve paid for. Any bills in your name? Find out your legal rights before you open the conversation.

I feel bad for you as it sounds as though he isn’t really ‘into’ the relationship in a healthy way if he wants everything ‘separate’. I have been there and with no proper commitment it isn’t easy. You deserve to have a ‘say’ and to discuss your concerns and long-term planning.

Would you like to get married to him? that would solve the issue.

Surely if he bought it cheap and it's been rented out there will be a huge capital gains bills if the property is ever sold.

You are in no way entitled to any of his money. We're living in the 21st century, women don't get an allowance from their partners anymore and that's effectively what you are suggesting. It is unreasonable and as he's been burned by his ex he may be very suspicious of you asking for a large some of money 'just in case we break up.'

As a couple, you have decided to stay financially independent, so it's down to you to make sure you have a safety net in case thinks go wrong, the same as it would be if you were single and renting, the landlord could give you notice at anytime and you'd have to make alternative arrangements.

Do you have any savings? If you do, depending on how much, you could broach the idea of you buying into the house, even if it's only a small share you'd have a stake in the property and would have just as much right to live there. Get it put in writing that you own X% of the property and under what circumstances he would have to either buy you out or the house would have to be sold and you get X% of the equity.
If not then why not suggest the the two of you get some kind of tenancy agreement drawn up, decide on a reasonably notice period, that way if you do break up, then he couldn't kick you out there and then, you'd have at least a few months to find somewhere else to live. It'd be an awkward and uncomfortable few months, but you wouldn't be homeless.

I do understand that you're worried about being left in the sh*t if things don't work out, but it is not your partner's job to ensure you have a safety net.

I hope you can work something out.

@Toomuchtrouble4me

I think that you do have a right to the equity in the house which you have contributed towards over 12years - go and see a solicitor and find out where you stand and start to compile a dossier of every item you’ve paid for. Any bills in your name? Find out your legal rights before you open the conversation.

She doesn't. They're not married and she can't claim the benefits that marriage provides.

In fairness to the OP she realises with hindsight her situation, and knows she has to protect herself by gaining control of her own security.

Anyone else telling her what she could have or should have done.. we're 280 posts in and that message has been well and truly made.

Hello I haven't read the entire thread but a suggestion could he put in his will that you have the right to stay in the house for your lifetime then on your death the house would pass to his beneficiaries (I don't know if he has children?)
This may be a good compromise as it protects you having a roof over your head should your partner die but equally protects his nest egg.

I think you have every right to be concerned about your and your childrens financial stability. It would be naive not to have these concerns,if he owns the house and has a bigger salary. You don't have to have the biggest salary to be equal in any way to him. You work hard and raise the children and after 12 yrs, you should both be looking at ways to secure your futures. life insurance is very important in my opnion. Just out of intreast ask a solicitor what your rights are and how you can help yourself to become more financially independent. good luck!

You’re not necessarily high and dry but it’s legally complex. It’s possible to earn an interest in a property by things like paying for improvements even when you’re not on the title and have not paid towards mortgage. It’s an uncertain and unpredictable area of law but get some advice.

@TrixieMixie

Would you like to get married to him? that would solve the issue.

I did. And so he has said over and over again.. did he. But in his words there is always ‘something’ that one of us isn’t happy about and to his mind unless we are 100% perfect as a couple 100% of the time.. it won’t ever happen. Hence being 12 years in and no commitment. The idea of getting married now seems lost.., I can’t honestly see it ever happening.

I really feel for you OP, I think you, like so many other women, have put everyone else first to your own detriment. We got sold this bullshit in movies that if we are lovely enough and carry all the domestic and emotional labour in our relationships we will somehow be rewarded and valued for it. Totally failing to consider the reality that is men. Younger women seem much more onto this bullshit.

If I were you, I would be looking for the best paid job I could find. Preferably in the civil service, local government or a university - somewhere with a good average salary pension. And I would be moving to where ever that job required me to be. In 10/15 years and you'll have a good enough pension.

Your son needs to get a job elsewhere and unhook himself from this man as well. He doesn't sound nice at all, he knows full well the power he has over you and clearly enjoys using it. Quite frankly the idea of heading into old age with someone who could take a turn and kick you on the streets without a second thought would be making my blood run cold.

The additional money I spend goes towards other household needs such as cleaning products, pet food, toiletries (for all), additional food if we have people over, birthday gifts (all family), my car, my kids cars (although they have started paying themselves now they are older and able), per insurance (joint pets), phone etc etc

If you are earning 20k a year and paying £600 a month for bills and food (as I've mentioned before) you have £900 a month disposable income. This list does not come to anywhere near £900 a month. Even if you have several pets and only buy the most expensive pet food, gifts, toiletries, etc it doesn't come anywhere near £900.

OP I think you are much worse than you realise at managing money. And I suspect that is one of the reasons your DP doesn't want you anywhere near his finances.

i think you are entitled to something but you have a legal obligation to prove you have contributed to the home, be it bills ect, keep copys of everything you have paid for, and SAVE SAVE SAVE.

Hello op, am sorry I haven't had time trtwt, just your posts and am sorry that it sounds like people have been brutal with you. I don't quite understand why. We aren't all strategists, and Sometimes life gets in the way of doing the sensible thing. We're all hunan and what you lack in being calculated you make up for in coming across as a pretty nice person.

Anyhow, my two penneth is that the main thing is you are here now and what to create a safety net for yourself. It's also not just about you, it's about creating something that even if you don't financially benefit from, Your kids will benefit from an inheretance which at least you partner can agree - is life changing.

So may be start from there. Surely he will see it from your pov. Can you both invest in another property? It could be a rental property, 50/50 or would he agree to remortgaging the house you share and effectively ' buying it together' and he invest his share somewhere else? Because it just sounds like you want to be on an even footing.

Just wanted to send you lots of love, I went through similar with my ex (kid’s dad) we earnt pretty much the same, I gave up my (cheap) rented place and moved into the house he had bought, I paid more of the bills than him (I also paid all the childcare which was well over 1k a month) as well as paying for food etc and things like a new bathroom. We were always planning on buying a bigger house together so I just let it go for ease while juggling work and kids etc. When I eventually decided to leave after 10 years I walked away with absolutely nothing despite contributing every penny I earnt to our joint household costs for a decade(while he bought iPads and cameras etc I would pay for the bulk of family holidays on the basis he was paying child maintenance to his eldest child). I was an idiot, I will never be in that situation again and if I do ever live with current partner I will be making sure I am protected, so I think you are wise to want a “plan”

Would it be feasible for you to move out and rent/buy your own place? You won't get back anything back that you put into the house (aside from the things you bought), but at least you would be in control and not living with this fear of the future.

It doesn't seem like he wants to get married, so I don't see your situation ever changing. The longer you're there, the more he benefits and the less you benefit. You can still have a relationship with him if you wanted. But I think you now have to protect yourself and your children.

@DeathStare

The additional money I spend goes towards other household needs such as cleaning products, pet food, toiletries (for all), additional food if we have people over, birthday gifts (all family), my car, my kids cars (although they have started paying themselves now they are older and able), per insurance (joint pets), phone etc etc

If you are earning 20k a year and paying £600 a month for bills and food (as I've mentioned before) you have £900 a month disposable income. This list does not come to anywhere near £900 a month. Even if you have several pets and only buy the most expensive pet food, gifts, toiletries, etc it doesn't come anywhere near £900.

OP I think you are much worse than you realise at managing money. And I suspect that is one of the reasons your DP doesn't want you anywhere near his finances.

With all due respect.. paying out for three car insurances, tax etc.. pet insurance x 2 which is not cheap, additional food to top up the weekly budget, 3x phones (not on extortionate contracts), luxury items.. eg toiletries etc.. cleaning products etc... my own fuel.. believe me £900 doesn’t go very far.

One child is at college but has just got a job , the other was working on an apprenticeship until recently which was a rubbish wage and not enough to pay a significant amount to me.. when my partner sacked him. (Due to my partner drinking heavily during the week and being ratty in the morning and not having patience)... not my child’s fault entirely and completely out of order IMO.

So believe it or not.. it think actually I am the contrary managing to stretch what I do have so far. Don’t forget I have no maintenance from kids dad to rely on.

The children do now pay towards cars etc but it is in proportion to their own earnings. I have also changed my employment so I am now in a better position to begin saving -

I feel perhaps that some people commenting on this thread are also a little out of touch in the costs of bringing up young adults financially.., unless of course you have just been incredibly fortunate and had supportive exes who actually want to contribute and see their kids do well.

You say you love each other and have been together for 12 years. Even with the histories of your previous marriages, isn't 12 years long enough to discover if you also trust each other? If there's no trust between you, that's a really bad sign. Why, after 12 years, aren't you married? Are neither of you really committed to this relationship? Are you hoping things will just magically work out? Or, and I hate to be brutal here, is at least one of you waiting for someone better to come along? You can love someone but not really trust them. But is that really good enough for you? Don't you want love AND trust?

OP you are under no obligation to pay for those things for your adult children. It’s a luxury to be able to, many parents can’t. And it would have been more sensible to tell them you couldn’t afford to, and focus on saving a deposit so you have secure housing. These are not unavoidable costs!