To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

I don't know who to vote for anymore.

I would class myself as a socialist. I am incredibly lucky to have a job and a house and my health. I am happy to pay tax that helps others. I want a fairer world for everyone. I think people should have the right to leave their birth country and live anywhere they choose. I think a government should have its people's best interests at heart.

For me, this makes voting Tory untenable. But maybe growing up in the 80s and working in the public sector has skewed my views. I genuinely don't understand how anyone can vote for a party that always makes life harder for the most vulnerable. So much of life depends on circumstances out of our control.

As an observer rather than a member of the party, it's pretty hard not to criticise voters when you see them being interviewed saying stuff like they have voted Tory as Labour have let them down, their area hasn't got a court/enough police/a library/enough jobs/a decent hospital.... Tories have been in power for 11 years and most of what they are complaining about are the effects of austerity, not what Labour have done

Parties trying to be elected should never, ever blame the voters.

If people feel that labour have let them down then labour have to dig deeper and understand what they mean by this. If it isn't true, then the party needs to concede they’re losing the PR battle.

Politics is a tough game. Labour just aren’t playing smart enough.

[quote supermoonrising]@Newrumpus
That’s certainly the media narrative. I think it’s pretty simplistic. OK, let’s just look at one strand: Labour never thought Brexit was a good idea. It might have backed the Democratic vote. But it thought it was a stupid and damaging project. It still does, but hey, here we are. 70% of people in Hartlepool however thought Brexit was the bees knees. They didn’t like hearing Labour’s lack of enthusiasm and caution. Hence, at the recent byelection, the Tories hoovered up the substantial exBrexit vote (combined Tory+Brexit Party vote in 2019 was 8,000 more than Labour). Neither side was “wrong” here, just a clash of views. What you’d expect in any democracy. An anti EU town voting against a proEU party with the shadow of Brexit still looming large.[/quote]
Corbyn was a Brexiteer who bottled it when he had the chance to offer a Brexit vision and became (presumably under pressure) a reluctant Remainer. Had he had the courage of his convictions, things might have been different but he clearly lacked the leadership skills required.

I think ‘it still does’ is telling. Until Labour understands that voters want a positive vision for Brexit Britain, they will not win votes. Did Labour deliberately try to provoke the Hartlepool voters by their choice of candidate?

I need some help on this with actual dates and numbers but my general points are valid, I think. (need to go and do some work so pressed for time)
There was a time, I think in 1960s when the Liberal Party was down to about 5 MPs.
They built themselves up (30?) and Nick Clegg was included in a coalition. That I think was fairly successful.

We now know that the LibDems are back to being irrelevant. We could all study that cycle and learn from it.
They very few Liberals in 1960s were respected and contributed to many debates at the time. I remember Jo Grimond, he represented the very north of Scotland I think.
In the 70s and 80s, the Liberals concentrated on getting local councillors elected and building up awareness leading to a core of supporters.
All parties could benefit from that.

Correct, thankfully

Until Labour understands that voters want a positive vision for Brexit Britain, they will not win votes.

Thing is, it's gone beyond the vision now - we have the reality, and it's a shit show. If people want someone to lie to them, not about the future, but about what is actually happening, well... I think it may be a good thing in the long run that Labour didn't wholeheartedly back Brexit. The last year the impact has been masked by the pandemic, but that won't be the case forever.

I dont think there will be another Labour govt in my lifetime and I am beyond gutted about it.

I honestly just dont understand the British public, I never will. Covid incompetence, Brexit shambles and such blatant cronyism and provable lies (border in the Irish sea for example) yet people have still fallen over themselves to give them more power. I reckon they will get an even bigger majority in 2024.

So fucking depressing.

I grew up in the North East with family in former mining towns etc.
The thing Labour have failed to understand is that a lot of so-called working class people don't consider themselves working class, more likely lower middle class now. So Labour ranting on about representing the working classes falls on deaf ears.
The 'red wall' has fallen because the Tory narrative on representing 'hard-working families' is more resonant for them.
Combined with the fact that Labour is suffering from a particularly bad bout of 'looney leftism' at the moment with all the gender identity politics thing. I wonder how many votes Labour's association with Eddie Izzard lost them?

I honestly just dont understand the British public, I never will.

To be fair it’s the English public, not the British public.

I don't feel as if this should be so hard for Labour

I think there are theoretical, academic issues on their agenda which should be removed

workers' rights are poor - they could concentrate on those and many of us would be pleased

some controls in the housing market

re-allocation of public funds. I don't see any effort to capitalise on the PM potential abuse of public funds? It just all seems very silent with Starmer around.

I think you’re looking at Conservative governments for the next 10-15 years. However, I remember a time during the Blair government when a Conservative government any time soon looked like pie in the sky - remember Iain Duncan Smith and William Hague? That turned around eventually, as all things do.

Well I dont understand Scottish or Welsh Tory votes either...

@AGreatEscspe
Agreed. I'm a floating voter and didnt vote conservative at the last election, and will likely not at the next, but that's because I disagreed with Brexit and several of their policies but not really because any other party has inspired confidence or compelled me to vote for for them. I often feel I'm voting for the "least worst option" rather than a party that inspires trust and confidence, or represents how I think the country should be run.

I voted Labour in the last election, because I thought the local candidate was the strongest and most engaged with local issues but I certainly didnt think JC would make a great PM (not that I think Boris Johnson is!!)

@FilthyforFirth

I dont think there will be another Labour govt in my lifetime and I am beyond gutted about it.

I honestly just dont understand the British public, I never will. Covid incompetence, Brexit shambles and such blatant cronyism and provable lies (border in the Irish sea for example) yet people have still fallen over themselves to give them more power. I reckon they will get an even bigger majority in 2024.

So fucking depressing.

In order to understand the British public I think you need to realise how awful the opposition is to understand the way people are voting. It is not so much an endorsement of the current government but a message that says, ‘Despite all of this, this is preferable to your offer’ therefore the British opposition parties have a job to do. They need to stop licking their wounds and offer a positive alternative.

@madamehooch

I think if they can find another leader like John Smith, they might have more of a fighting chance.

I agree with you, but the only person in politics who came close imo was Jo Cox. And they are both gone.

Thank fuck

@FilthyforFirth

I dont think there will be another Labour govt in my lifetime and I am beyond gutted about it.

I honestly just dont understand the British public, I never will. Covid incompetence, Brexit shambles and such blatant cronyism and provable lies (border in the Irish sea for example) yet people have still fallen over themselves to give them more power. I reckon they will get an even bigger majority in 2024.

So fucking depressing.

You don't understand why people don't want something even worse?

It's really not a difficult concept to grasp!

I quite like Jess Phillips. Straight talking with a personality.

I am dreading the fall out because so many people feel the answer to people voting Tory is to move MORE to the left - yeah because if people wanted that they would vote for a far left party.

Like it or not we do not live in a nation that likes the idea of extremes - we like middle of the road - Blair got that and it worked - Kier needs to get some actual policies and stop being a fanny

and yes listen to bloody women and working class people - stop being woolly or trying to be a Marxist party - good social democracy is the way forward

A first time conservative voter on Today programme this morning, when asked why, described Keir Starmer as a “ghost”. Barely visible, the interviewee, having little idea what he stands for.
Tend to agree.
Thought Jeremy Corbyn a joke, elderly Wolfe Smith but I knew what he represented.

@supermoonrising

Labour obviously has huge issues getting enough votes to be in government again, but most people in the UK are extremely politically illiterate. And when they hear their preferred media source tell them that Labour has zero policies on housing and the economy and is only fixated on gender pronouns, millions of people lap it up and don’t question the narrative at all. I support people turning their backs on Labour, but this notion that Labour is not concerned with solving real problems while the Tories are (the party that wasted incredible time/resources on a pointless Brexit that may well soon break the Union, that got in a fury about statues, that is obsessed with killing the BBC ...). I just can’t take it seriously. Please someone tell me ONE real issue - housing, NHS, education, etc - that they have made better - through their own targeted actions/policies - than it was under the last Labour government

And again the left tell people they are stupid to vote for them.

The sheer arrogance and irony of anyone who cannot see the problem on the left is encapsulated in this post

And when will the left accept very few people read print media anymore. And when will they accept that broadcast media is regulated against political bias. The excuse doesn’t work anymore.

I blame the Islington Champagne socialists types for Labour's downfall. I have nothing in common with them. And don't agree with their values or lack of them.

@ghostyslovesheets

I am dreading the fall out because so many people feel the answer to people voting Tory is to move MORE to the left - yeah because if people wanted that they would vote for a far left party.

Like it or not we do not live in a nation that likes the idea of extremes - we like middle of the road - Blair got that and it worked - Kier needs to get some actual policies and stop being a fanny

and yes listen to bloody women and working class people - stop being woolly or trying to be a Marxist party - good social democracy is the way forward

I was amused during the Labour leadership election by the people opposing Kier Starmer on the basis he was “posh” and a Sir, so people wouldn’t vote for him. That’s just after the people had voted in a Conservative government led by an old Etonian.

but the 'Islington' lot got us elected in 1996 and kept us there

Heard it all before. I lived through the locust years of Thatcherism when 20% of UK industry vanished in 2 years yet she was rewarded with landslides. We will never again see a Labour government , people confidently asserted. But ...I think the two party FPTP thing is dead in the water. There is a broadly left of centre majority in Britain and Labour needs to engage with it. Electoral pacts if necessary. Meanwhile Johnson is using good old Labour policies , spending on infrastructure oop North - if he delivers? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.