To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

Its almost as if there aren’t any other parties to vote for

If you care about women’s rights, there aren’t any. The Greens and Libdems are both as bad as Labour when it comes to denying that women exist. I never thought I’d be spoiling my paper two elections in a row. The Pankhursts must be turning in their graves.

check out the SDP. Though unfortunately they did really poorly in Hartlepool

I can't vote for any of them because they are all so awful. The thought of having a Tory Gov for another 11 years?

To the person who mentioned that some of us said we aren't Labour voters. What I mean is I am not 'socialist' in my political beliefs, and especially not in any way attracted to the type of hypocritical socialism offered by the Chattering Classes of Islington.

These are people that don't want Grammar schools for the proles, whilst sending their own kids to private schools and having attended Grammar schools themselves. These are people that seem to have a visceral loathing for white working class men and women, the very people they depend on for the vote. These are people that enjoyed free university then pulled the ladder up after them for people like me.

I could go on. The Tory party are no better these days, but at least they offer something for aspirational people who no longer want to languish in victim-hood, much to Labour's chagrin.

Furthermore, Labour are getting worse, not better. They never appealed to me but their lurch towards Marxism under Corbyn and subsequent attachment to any woke movement going has made their existence as a mainstream party untenable, never mind unelectable.

The thought of having a Tory Gov for another 11 years?

The current form of Tory, yes, it sends shivers down my spine. A much kinder form of Tory as with Macmillan, who didn't undo the NHS which Labour had brought in, and built a load of Council houses. He had been an MP for Stockton on Tees in the 1930s and had seen deprivation at first hand, which no doubt informed his behaviour. But the current form of Tory where bungs for friends are the norm - no thanks, but if people are happy to vote for that, that's democracy. Even though a bung to a friend is money which can't be spent on the NHS or schools or transport or creating jobs.

These are people that don't want Grammar schools for the proles, whilst sending their own kids to private schools and having attended Grammar schools themselves.

But if you look at the threads about education in Kent where Grammar schools are the default, do they look as though they are schools which are serving the working classes well? It all looks to be about tutoring and private schools getting pupils in.

@btwwhichonespink

To the person who mentioned that some of us said we aren't Labour voters. What I mean is I am not 'socialist' in my political beliefs, and especially not in any way attracted to the type of hypocritical socialism offered by the Chattering Classes of Islington.

These are people that don't want Grammar schools for the proles, whilst sending their own kids to private schools and having attended Grammar schools themselves. These are people that seem to have a visceral loathing for white working class men and women, the very people they depend on for the vote. These are people that enjoyed free university then pulled the ladder up after them for people like me.

I could go on. The Tory party are no better these days, but at least they offer something for aspirational people who no longer want to languish in victim-hood, much to Labour's chagrin.

Furthermore, Labour are getting worse, not better. They never appealed to me but their lurch towards Marxism under Corbyn and subsequent attachment to any woke movement going has made their existence as a mainstream party untenable, never mind unelectable.

Exactly that especially the Tony Blair new Labour.

A much kinder form of Tory as with Macmillan, who didn't undo the NHS which Labour had brought in, and built a load of Council houses.

TBH I doubt if it was because he was kinder. It's more likely because capitalism had a powerful ideological rival backed by a global superpower which looked like it had the potential to be a genuine threat to the UK if too many people here were attracted to it.

The best way to ensure they weren't, was to make sure they were better off than people who lived in the Soviet Union. No one in their right minds could have thought life would be better under communism than under Macmillan. It's not a coincidence that neo-liberalism didn't get into its stride until after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Maybe ScreamingBeans - although I think Macmillan having served in WW1 and represented Stockton did have more genuine understanding of what ordinary people's lives were like, than Johnson and cronies have ever done.

@Peregrina

These are people that don't want Grammar schools for the proles, whilst sending their own kids to private schools and having attended Grammar schools themselves.

But if you look at the threads about education in Kent where Grammar schools are the default, do they look as though they are schools which are serving the working classes well? It all looks to be about tutoring and private schools getting pupils in.

That's exactly what it is. Grammar schools consistently have disproportionately fewer kids on free school meals, which is the measure they use to define poverty (though when I was earning £9K p.a. with 2 kids as a single parent, they weren't entitled to free school meals, so it only measures the very poorest).

If you can't afford the tutoring, your kid won't get a place unless they are really brilliant. Middle class kids don't need to be brilliant, they just need good tutors every week for a year before the test. That's how it works.

I live in hope we never see one!

Labour: Blair and his invasions, Corbyn and his fence sitting, Starmer and his knee taking.

I'd love for them to be a decent opposition, but they aren't, and Boris and his antics are a more attractive proposition.

Also the left are too busy fighting amongst themselves. If the authoritarian yet woke Labour members would kindly form their own party then the rest of them could join the lib dems and the greens and we could have a credible option.

@Blossomtoes

Its almost as if there aren’t any other parties to vote for

If you care about women’s rights, there aren’t any. The Greens and Libdems are both as bad as Labour when it comes to denying that women exist. I never thought I’d be spoiling my paper two elections in a row. The Pankhursts must be turning in their graves.

Agreed

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for *how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?

So many people in this thread could easily have been sucked in by Farage/UKIP/ the BNP and so on. How embarrassing for them, and MN. This would appear to be MN's core audience. Ick.

@MmeLaraque

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for *how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?

So many people in this thread could easily have been sucked in by Farage/UKIP/ the BNP and so on. How embarrassing for them, and MN. This would appear to be MN's core audience. Ick.

And there we have the philosophy behind Labour's demise in a nutshell.

I think Angela Rayner is also a problem so closely affiliated with Rebecca Long Bailey and the left.

Couldn't see this posted - Angela Rayner has been sacked as Labour Party Chair.

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?*

Are you suggesting MN should close threads down if they don't share all your political views? What an odd post.

@MmeLaraque

MN admin: you've let this post rumble on for *how many pages, proving that many of your subscribers are as politically ignorant as people accuse them of being?

So many people in this thread could easily have been sucked in by Farage/UKIP/ the BNP and so on. How embarrassing for them, and MN. This would appear to be MN's core audience. Ick.

that's really rude and totally inaccurate - as a Labour Party member for over 30 years if you are a supporter I really think you are part of the problem if that's how you view reasoned debate and people who don;t agree with you.

I won't vote for Labour unless and until they get their heads out of their collective arses on women's issues. I don't mean token gestures (not that that's happening) but real, sustained and fundamental changes to the mindset that throws adult female humans on a bonfire of Labour vanities.

So many people in this thread could easily have been sucked in by Farage/UKIP/ the BNP and so on. How embarrassing for them, and MN. This would appear to be MN's core audience. Ick.

All you’ve got is insults.

Do you still not understand that this is the worst possible strategy for bringing people round to your view?

I really think you are part of the problem if that's how you view reasoned debate and people who don;t agree with you.

She’s the absolute definition of the problem

Not listening
Hurling out insults instead of debating
Openly looking down on the people whose vote she thinks labour is entitled to

@MmeLaraque I don't know how many times you need to be told you and the likes of you are the problem in the Labour party. Looking down on people calling them names being extremely condescending and just downright rude. But you don't see it and I am baffled as to why when the polls and actual results show you otherwise. Is your righteousness worth it, because surely THINKING you are better and actually being in government to be able to do better are 2 different things. Time and time again people like me as ex Labour voters are telling you why we left and yet you still say WE are the ones that are wrong.

The women's issue is what they should have pinned to their mast. The WASPI issue. Ensuring no self ID and maintaining safe spaces. Looking at why women are shafted so hard by reproducing, healthcare, relationships, male violence, the workplace. This single issue could turn it round for them. If they supported ALL women, to have better, safer lives and not be seen as 'less' they'd not only get in power but they'd solve a problem that is fucking tearing this country apart.

@TheKeatingFive

I really think you are part of the problem if that's how you view reasoned debate and people who don;t agree with you.

She’s the absolute definition of the problem

Not listening
Hurling out insults instead of debating
Openly looking down on the people whose vote she thinks labour is entitled to

This. Kill debate because I disagree. The absolute epitome of Labour’s problem.

@ItscoldinAlaska

The women's issue is what they should have pinned to their mast. The WASPI issue. Ensuring no self ID and maintaining safe spaces. Looking at why women are shafted so hard by reproducing, healthcare, relationships, male violence, the workplace. This single issue could turn it round for them. If they supported ALL women, to have better, safer lives and not be seen as 'less' they'd not only get in power but they'd solve a problem that is fucking tearing this country apart.

It's interesting to see how many commenters on Janice Turner's column in the Times are making this same point. Labour's stance on self-ID barely gets any media coverage, but it's clearly no longer a niche issue. Women are aware - and angry.