To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

I've also never heard a labour politician insult the w/c or accuse them of being stupid. Whereas I have heard mps like rees-mogg do that....

Totally agree Puzzled. I feel Sir Keir's frustration. The Labour Party is finished. It need to disband and regroup as two separate parties.

I tend to vote Tory so obviously it's all good news to me, but I still recognise the need for a strong, credible opposition and this incarnation of the Labour party clearly isn't it.

Politics is cyclical. Nothing is permanent, that's the beauty of a democracy.

Also so many of the entrenched arguments are so old and tired, people hating any idea just because it's a tory one?

I'd like to see cross party work on NHS and schools. The old trope is of course grammar schools and unfair privalige but many years ago grammar school was the way out for many poor dc, I know df was one of them and I was told by a hardened lefty on here that his poverty wasn't poor enough?

Instead of jeering out grammar bad grammar bad why not look at the school situation differently and pin point what does go wrong, how can we get smaller class sizes? How can we support those with sen more, those with difficulties or disabilities?

For dc who are bright but are extremely good at English but maybe not maths or vice versa, how can we tweak the system so they arnt disadvantaged?

How can we support dc getting into the correct school for the their needs? I have one dc who needs a grammar and one who is struggling, but the local comp can't assist her, what's left for us?

It's not one size fits all and as an example, I think the next winner for Labour will be the person who can see we are not all the same and we are different, listen to the mum like me whose dc won't be supported by the local very good comp, because one is too bright for it and one struggles too much?

higher taxes on empty homes

Onetoomuch yes I agree on this and I think so do people from all political parties.
One of the problems is that many empty properties such as whole blocks of flats are owned by companies registered abroad and it’s very hard to collect tax from them.

That MPs (eg. The Dawn Butler and Lisa Nandy examples above) can publicly make such ridiculous and downright dangerous statements because they have backed themselves into a corner because of ideological purity, just makes me wonder what other terrible things they would say or do out of fear of upsetting a certain faction.

Yes. That's part of it. The terrifying spectre of people saying ridiculous things because they are too scared to tell the truth. What it tells me, is that they are Mitläufer, people who either have no intellectual curiosity or have no personal integrity. Either way, I don't want to be ruled by such a piss poor cadre of people. I find it very scary that if they come to power, I may lose my job and never be allowed to work in my field again, because I don't believe men are women and have said so publicly.

It's not just about women's rights. It's about having personal integrity and people who hide behind accusations of transphobia or other isms to duck reasonable questions, are not fit to govern a family, let alone a country.

I can't believe the comments that some people make in support of politics. So many patronising, controlling comments - implicitly criticising the intelligence of people making their own voting choices. Has anyone other than the most gullible actually been criticised and hectored into changing their voting choice?

According to many, if you don't vote Labour or do vote Conservative, you're either selfish, a child killer or as good as, stupid or alternatively, if you point out you're actually more educated and/in a very good job, a snob or, even worse, "rich".

Its hard to think who would actually fit into the limited parameters of perfection that Labour supporters would like to apply to people in this country.

And even if you did, you would have to be so careful what you say in order to fit into the tiny range of permitted word choices and opinions.

And then they just repeat their own unsuccessful, unappealing arguments again and again, with the same unsuccessful results, blaming everyone but themselves and never learning from it.

Maybe and perhaps it’s simply the slightly more palatable of a pretty bad bunch? In other words no real credible ideal choices that tick all the boxes but the vaccination and Brextania blues are probably more ideal than anything else? As evidenced this week, there is not much or any opposition (in England at least). Can’t comment on the provinces as UK unity is a contentious issue. Would welcome a change in London as hopefully a fresh Mayor with inspirational plans instead of same old same old pandering to a select demographic. What would you do instead to make a difference?

I really hope these defeats embolden starmer to take the party to the centre. He needs to stare down the hard left or leave the job to someone who will.

As I see it Labour's constant infighting seems to have more importance to the Party than getting back into Office.
When David lost to Ed due to the union vote it was obvious a return was some way off.
When Corbyn was elected most Blairite MPs left.
Labour needs to have a leader Tories will vote for and the media will support.

Labour are not a good opposition at the moment and honestly, I doubt they ever will be again. Theybhave chosen to remain silent or on the fence about too much now.

We need a new party to stand up against the conservatives but while not alienating half of the voters by insulting them if they don't agree with 100% of their views. A party with common sense and community values at the core is desperatly needed.

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline the laspo act in 2012 passed by the tory coalition was indeed a crippling and concerted attack on legal aid. Lord Falconer admitted that a labour government set the ball rolling (and regretted it ) to control a budget that was rising too fast but as usual the tories took it one step too far.
So somewhat disingenous to blame it on labour outright.

Many people who describe themselves as ' hard working tax payers ' tend to be either hiding their wealth or putting it off shore and thinking we don't know ( although the Rolex and big house is a clue)
Many are just hypocrites, but again it's tapped into something here that only ' the real workers' matter. That's until they might need the welfare state , then they discover it's not the eutopia the daily Mail tell them it is or as easy to access.
Still, won't stop people voting Tory.

The tories always ditch any ' lame duck ' leaders. Sir Kier would be out on his ear if he was in charge of the tories with such terrible results.

@YouJustFoldItIn

Totally agree Puzzled. I feel Sir Keir's frustration. The Labour Party is finished. It need to disband and regroup as two separate parties.

I tend to vote Tory so obviously it's all good news to me, but I still recognise the need for a strong, credible opposition and this incarnation of the Labour party clearly isn't it.

This is the worst thing they could do. There are already two many parties on the left and they split the vote far too much.

For example, in the last general election, more people voted for a left-wing party but we ended up with a heavy Tory majority because the right-wing vote isn't split.

As I said before, if you factor in turnout as well, this Government only had the support of under 30% of the eligible voting population. Left-wing parties collectively got support from 34% of the possible voting public. The system doesn't make sense.

The Labour Party is finished. It need to disband and regroup as two separate parties

I agree, but as with the SDP, "new" parties tend to get voted down if there's a familiar group available - "better the devil you know" and all that. So what (IMO) needs to happen may help in the longer term, but not quite yet

At least it would offer a way forward though, because carrying on as they are seems pointless from an electoral POV. I was no great fan of Blair, but Mandelson's words tell us everything we need to know about the last eleven elections:

"Lose, lose, lose, lose - Blair, Blair, Blair - lose, lose, lose, lose"

@Nappyvalley15

I really hope these defeats embolden starmer to take the party to the centre. He needs to stare down the hard left or leave the job to someone who will.

Agree.

But I can't see party activists acquiescing.
The internal struggles are too great - the Left won't back down and the Right are now too weak with too few supporters to win back control.
And we are left with Tory rule for another generation.

Oh here's another thing I don't know has been pointed out yet.

One of the reasons I am more angry with the Labour Party than the other bunch of shits, is because the other bunch of shits haven't betrayed me. I always knew they were shits, I always expected them to be shits, I never expected anything else from them and so it never even occurred to me to put a cross against their colour in the ballot box.

I feel betrayed by the Labour Party in a way I don't feel betrayed by the others. So do lots of working class people in the North. That's why we won't vote for them anymore. It's not just the policies. I still haven't been able to bring myself to vote Tory and I hope I never have to, but the difference is that because of Labour betrayal, that prospect is now thinkable in a way that 20 or even 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been.

The identitarian remonstrations are not going to convince us to forgive the betrayal.

@lioncitygirl

God I hope Shaun Bailey wins.

Like the vast majority of the population I don’t live in London so I really don’t give a stuff who the next London mayor is.

Most people only care about the impact on their own lives which is why MN was flooded with posts in December 2019 saying they’d vote Tory because they didn’t want to pay more tax. That’s going to go well.

[quote MmeLaraque]@HesterBlue. You're absolutely correct about the Tories uniting all the right-wing voters. The UK has become an increasingly nasty place to be for many people. May started a Hostile environment policy, and Patel has continued it. Patel has pulled up the ladder behind her so fast, it's appalling.

The current govt is further right-wing than anything I've seen in the UK for a very long time. When I was a child (in the 1970s) it was considered shameful to be a member/supporting the BNP, or anyone so far right. At this point, millions of people are voting for exactly that.[/quote]
See, all this ridiculous exaggeration is another reason why people have stopped voting Labour.

I agree OP and it’s what will lead to Scottish independence eventually. Ridiculous that barely anyone has voted for Tories in decades here yet we continue to be represented by them. The political divide is so wide. A swing to Labour under Corbyn would’ve made all the difference, but people were so taken by the media hatchet job that it’ll be a long time before a socialist like him can come along again. Keir Starmer is pure Tory lite.

I really hope these defeats embolden starmer to take the party to the centre. He needs to stare down the hard left or leave the job to someone who will

I'd like to think so, but honestly believe they're beyond that now and that the hard left thought processes are too entrenched

Iamnotthe1 is right that splitting would be a dangerous thing to do, but when practically all hope is gone, sometimes the nuclear option is all that's left

I think there was quite a bit of listening to what ordinary people, even business owners wanted, but most just chose to regurgitate what the media says.

So they’re losing the PR battle. Focus on that.

@Andante57

With a Farage Breaking Point poster which was straight out of the Nazi playbook, you will have difficulty convincing me that a good majority of his supporters were not racist or anti-semitic.

Peregrina you said that at the end of the war when Hitler’s atrocities were public knowledge, ‘most of the British upper classes were pro Nazi’
(Very insulting to the numerous upper class young men who fought bravely and/or gave their lives in the fight against Hitler)
So obviously you see fascism and anti Semitic everywhere.

I think it was in one of David Kynastan's (sic) books on post war britain was not greatly sympathetic towards the Jews, even after emerging from cinemas showing the Nazi attrocities as was certainly NOT limited to the upper class.

Some of Labour's problems stem from their voting profile. Things have changed so much in this country. Where once many people identified as working class and were in powerful unions, this is no longer the case. Our industries have changed from the day when we had mines, ship building, steel workers etc.

Labour must reinvent themselves if they are going to appeal to voters.