To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

'Ridiculous that barely anyone has voted for Tories in decades here yet we continue to be represented by them. The political divide is so wide'

It is ridiculous. I would vote for independence and I'm English.

The problem with Labour is the optics. Starmer come across as a whiny drip, Rayner like a stroppy uneducated teen and sadly many of them seem to have lisps or poor public speaking skills. Johnson umms and errs but he booms when he speaks and he is convincing. For Labour to get people onside they need a charismatic, convincing team. Sadly they have none. Not one of them looks like they know what tf they are talking about.

I think it was in one of David Kynastan's (sic) books on post war britain was not greatly sympathetic towards the Jews, even after emerging from cinemas showing the Nazi attrocities as was certainly NOT limited to the upper class

MissAmanda that may well be true - casual racism only started to be addressed later.
However I think it’s unlikely that most of the upper class young men who went to fight were pro Hitler. If so it must have frustrating to lose one’s life fighting against a regime one actually supported.

The right wing press - Daily Mail, Express, Sun(sometimes), Telegraph
The left wing press Guardian, Independent, Daily Mirror.
As regards BbC and Sky news well it seems open to debate.

Say what you like about the Daily Mail but it knows what sells and how to sell it to their readership. Again, and Again and Again. If the left want to engage with the "stupid, white racist peasants who fly the frightful St Georges flag and have beer bellies and sportswear as normal clothing " they cannot say they have missed what to do. But they have.

Screaming beans I agree, Emily thornberrys white van man comment ad the flag /whilst purporting to be a caring Labour supporter, people do not forget these things.

Same with browns famous comment, that lady was desperate and deeply upset, she felt no one was aware or listening to her issues and brown instantly wrote her off as a bigot
Whilst simultaneously being a menebr of the so called party of the masses and down trodden

@Thelnebriati

Single sex spaces are allowed in law. Women have boundaries, get over it.

see also all WOMAN shortlists - they lost me when they decided men could be included (and no not just fully transformed trans women - just any many who fancied being a woman for a bit - that was enough to get on a short list designed to support more WOMEN into politics) I gave up then

They were happy enough to have the vote of bigoted, illeterate, racist, phobic, thick or whatever they call people - before. I have not voted Tory, the insulting labour posters on Mumsnet have made me rethink my stance and I don't even like Boris.

Jamie, Boris is used to public speaking./debating society.

How many schools aside from public schools push public speaking competitions?

Also I see momentum as a core of toxic, violent, racist thugs, I'm not sure if others see them like this, but it's like the BNP taking center stage of tories! But people seem to understand why to mistrust and fear the BNP, but not the hard left, all these extremists are the same.

@the80sweregreat

Many people who describe themselves as ' hard working tax payers ' tend to be either hiding their wealth or putting it off shore and thinking we don't know ( although the Rolex and big house is a clue) Many are just hypocrites, but again it's tapped into something here that only ' the real workers' matter. That's until they might need the welfare state , then they discover it's not the eutopia the daily Mail tell them it is or as easy to access. Still, won't stop people voting Tory.

I've responded to something similar on another post, but basically I've said that once you start policing peoples' use of ordinary English usage words and phrases, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

The message you are sending across is that Labour doesn't want people to describe themselves as taxpayers, or as hard working or as some combination as that. Therefore they don't represent taxpayers or hard workers.

Oh, and don't get above yourself, if you have a good job or work hard, because you "might need the welfare state". Know your place!

It might not stop people voting Conservative, but it will stop a lot of people from voting Labour, because they aren't interested in this overly pedantic word policing nonsense.

You are actually sending out the message that Labour think that describing yourself as a hard working taxpayer puts you in the same category as Rolex wearing offshore account tax avoiders with big houses. Instead, Labour says you must identify with benefits claimants. What if you have a big house (affordable because you live in the north) and have spent years saving up for a Rolex but have just paid a massive tax bill?

Can Labour seriously not employ people who advise them that this sort of negative, vote losing twaddle just alienates people?

You seriously think that encouraging people not to buy big houses or Rolexes and identify instead with welfare recipients is going to win back all their working class heartlands?

Its madness!

Miss Amanda - I agree. It’s easy when you lose to blame

The media for brainwashing people
Brexit for causing such a heavy loss
The successful vaccine roll out for not doing well

When people like Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar and Grace Something or other talk down to us all, tell us what we really need to think.. do you think that working class man in the North of England is listening. Sarkar in particular has already admitted she is a communist when she got into a spat with Piers Morgan. Well that sort of view is going to go down very well.

Yet they are given large amounts of air time. Personally I think they are double agents working for the Conservatives!

Corbyn was a Brexiteer who bottled it when he had the chance to offer a Brexit vision and became (presumably under pressure) a reluctant Remainer. Had he had the courage of his convictions, things might have been different but he clearly lacked the leadership skills required

Agree with that. I despise both Brexit and Corbyn, but his initial response to the referendum result was the right one - not to oppose it, but to work on ensuring that the rights of workers (in the broadest sense) were protected in the final deal with the EU.

But Corbyn was incapable of leadership, incapable of reaching out to the public (getting a Spiced-up Glasto crowd to chant your name does not count) and the Tories never took him seriously. Plus, he managed to be simultaneously pig-headedly stubborn, yet to vacillate constantly on what his line was. By the time of 2019 GE, Labour had achieved the impressive feat of pissing off everyone, as regards Brexit - from the hardest core Brexiter to the Remainiest Remainer - and everyone in between.

Starmer is yet another human rights lawyer and all he's done during all of this is shout Tory bad and then vote yes. Shouting wallpaper does not charisma make.

Take Stoke for instance. Heavily leave biased. Labour's response? You want remain you bigots! Stoke South only stayed Labour for one more term as UKIP split the vote. To lose Stoke and Newcastle Under Lyme, both former mining areas to the Tories takes a huge amount of doing.

It's not just Brexit though. People who work hard and live in poorer areas really do get the hump with parties determined to give the work shy more and more. There's always one or two families on an estate who've never worked a day but live a lifestyle.

But hey, keep the slurs coming as that's the Labour way!

Circles yes, well put.

but we ended up with a heavy Tory majority because the right-wing vote isn't split.

here Farage played the game and stood down many Brexit party contenders so as not to split the vote. Not that Johnson gave him any reward for doing so. He's now pretty much out in the wilderness - selling finance or something.

Who wants people to rule over us who think like that, speak to you like that if you don't worship them and their ideas, many of which are out there.

I may not have the highest iQ, literacy or social skills, I have better morals, sanity and integrity than others who have what I don't, for example Nandy, Raynar and Butler types who I think are pure evil or very unwell.

Owen Jones, the death knell of any cause!

Yes @ghostyslovesheets
None of these groups can ever explain what a a woman is if anyone can be one when they feel like it.
I love how ex Olympian Caitlyn Jenner has now been branded transphobic after saying men shouldn't play in woman's sports. this group eats itself! haha

The SNP, Welsh Labour and the Conservatives in England won their votes due to incumbency during the pandemic. Their leaders were on the TV doing Covid briefings party political broadcasts all the time.
I like Keir Starmer a great deal and I don't know what he's done wrong.
I suppose he could try and get a Twitter ban for people like Ash Sarker and Owen Jones.

I find with the left of the Labour Party (momentum etc) is that are very good at labelling all right wingers as racist (they are all not) and yet they demand that minorities HAVE to vote for them because "it's what they do." So when a person from a minority wants to be a Conservative the left of the party criticise them for not acting the "way they are supposed to" (I see this so much on Twitter) and are hounded for their "betrayal". I would argue that the far left and far right are just as bad as each other in viewing minorities as "other" and not meeting their expectations.

I am a centrist leaning left. I don't buy into the entire socialist Marxist ideal but I do want a fairer, more equal and kinder society. I do want to vote for Labour but I cannot. Several reasons why: they are very bogged down in identity politics. Starmer must have splinters in his bum, he abstains from voting so much. Sitting on the fence must be uncomfortable. The front bench are too "metropolitan" and far removed from most people outside of London. I don't relate to them. How they view women is a problem. How they see disability and mental health is a problem. I haven't seen any PLAN or POLICY that displays joined up thinking in tackling the total lack of mental health support or the accessibility issues people still face. They have said very little about UC, refuges, and domestic violence support. Very little about social care. Very little about how to tackle knife crime in my neighbourhood. These are the things my family and I want sorting, as well as many friends, but we get nothing.

People who work hard and live in poorer areas really do get the hump with parties determined to give the work shy more and more. There's always one or two families on an estate who've never worked a day but live a lifestyle

I hear that BUT we have a Tory government for the past 11 years so why is it seen as a Labour issue?

I’ve given up voting or hoping for anything better than what we’ve got.

My conclusion is just to keep my head down and find a way through life that enables my family to survive.

No one’s looking out for us or helping us. We have to take care of ourselves. That’s the Tory way right?

Momentum are no different to the BNP, racist violent thugs.

Boris is used to public speaking./debating society.

I don't think Johnson is a good public speaker. Of the current politicians the best speaker to me would be Sturgeon.

But hey, keep the slurs coming as that's the Labour way!

Many in the Labour Party (and on mumsnet) have an obsession with class. Do they really think everyone goes around wondering exactly what ‘class’ people belong to?
I remember during one election in the last 10 year, Labour activists arranged for 2 young men to dress up in tail coats and stand on a platform.
This was supposed to indicate how dreadful the Tories were but I’m afraid they didn’t get the message across. Passers-by stared at them in bemusement and they were the subject of much derision in the papers.
I don’t suppose they lost the Tories a single vote.

@supermoonrising

Sorry, that should say * I support people turning their backs on Labour for real faults and weaknesses of the party/their proposals - not for fantasy woke narratives made up by right wing press barons.

Then they need to get their message out there. Whenever Starmer is put on the spot her comes across as weak; he doesn’t promote the policy well, if there is one.