To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

I'm not particularly woke either and suspect plenty of Labour activists wouldn't want me in the party - in fact I know they wouldn't. But "[The Tories] are now the LEAST BAD option when it comes to defending our specific sex-based rights and protections" - fine, but I also have to balance this with having seen my disabled friends and relatives' lives being made deliberately, materially worse by the Tories. I have to balance this with having seen local authority cuts shut down local services.

I totally get this. It is a balancing act. For you because of your experiences you tip towards Labour, for me and my experiences I tip towards the Tories.

And this is how we should see it with out having to throw insults and faux disbelief.

@Chloemol

All parties lie they are all as bad as each other

Wages in real terms have barely risen since 2010. Those with assets, not income, fared much better since 2010.

Inequality is growing wider and wider. In 2009, the combined wealth of the UK's richest 1,000 people was £258billion. By 2020 they had £742billion* - an INCREASE of £484billion. As well as investing in propaganda, many of them fund the Conservatives.

Policies not addressing the inflated housing market affecting young people badly in many areas of U.K. Continued lack of council housing.

Huge cuts to disability benefits, social care and legal aid since 2010 due to govt imposed austerity which didn’t work, growth sluggish, national debt risen considerably, though richest did fine.

Increasing fragmentation of NHS and lowest funding from govt % wise since set up over 75 years ago.

Some of Labour’s stance on sex and gender I don’t agree with, and will lobby, but for all the reasons above, plus more, I will not vote Conservative. We desperately need change and PR voting system.

@LemonRoses

SmokedDuck Please don't patronise me - I understand perfectly why those in the traditional labour lands might be pro-Brexit and how they have come to feel that way. That doesn't in any way make the Tories any less far right in their current policies. Unfortunately they have set an agenda of them and us, blaming 'furriners' for all things that is in fact the fault of a government who are opposed in principle to good welfare systems and a fairer society. The Tories have control of the press and sell their lies and the gullible go there. They believe a deal with India will replace the losses from the EU and that Europeans are stealing our jobs, our houses and filling our hospital wards. They don't hear the truth that the NHS can't now recruit easily from Europe, that our farmers are flying in Eastern Europeans to avoid rotting crops, that our fishing and dairy industries have been devastated and that we cannot staff the hospitality industries - even though we want them all open.

The policies you mention aren't particularly far right, I'm not sure what you think it "far" about them?

If Labour had taken on the problems related to influxes of workers in some sectors, leading to depressed wages and lack of investment and training, and the fact that many communities have had significantly degraded social capital (these are the ones that tended to vote Leave) and that lack of housing and immigration don't mix well - they could have made an alternate argument about how to proceed. They had plenty of chance to do so.

Instead they didn't address these basic concerns, worse, said anyone who raised them was a bigot.

If they abandon their role as representatives of workers, and someone else then goes on to talk about those issues and makes some hay with them, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Like a pp said - they no longer represent the interests of workers, they represent the urban middle classes. Supporting movement of labour is a right wing position. They should not be shocked when that reduces their appeal.

[quote fiheka]@Hotankles not the point I made at all.
I make my voting decisions based on current leaders of parties. And hell would freeze over before I would vote for someone as corrupt as Boris Johnson. He should be in prison.
But I would have voted for Theresa May over Corbyn.
Leaders matter. And Boris Johnson is the worst leader of any main political party in Britain for a long time.[/quote]
Well if we’re talking about prison Tony Blair should be his cell mate.

Hell would freeze over before I voted a party that refused to admit women needed safe sex spaces. ( and actually told us to leave for questioning it)

If the lead continues in the poll for Boris Johnson, expect to see more corruption. Because he will know he can give billions of taxpayer money to his friends without any comeback.
Billions that could be spent on the NHS or our schools.

@Hotankles yes prison. What Boris Johnson has been doing is a criminal offence.
How would your workplace react if you gave billions to friends for services and products that did not appear? Would they regard it as corruption?

Some of Labour’s stance on sex and gender I don’t agree with, and will lobby, but for all the reasons above, plus more, I will not vote Conservative. We desperately need change and PR voting system

How can you lobby your party from within when you’ve been expelled for questioning a policy?

[quote fiheka]@Hotankles yes prison. What Boris Johnson has been doing is a criminal offence.
How would your workplace react if you gave billions to friends for services and products that did not appear? Would they regard it as corruption?[/quote]
Well Boris needs to go to jail then. Your not grasping that we’re not voting for Boris. We’re voting because the party are the only party that isn’t destroying women’s safe spaces and rights. Because all the other parties are.

I do not understand anyone who can vote for an openly corrupt leader. But still, it happens.
I used to read about people voting in developing countries for openly corrupt governments and wonder why. Now it is happening here.
Things are going to get a lot worse in this country. Poverty has already increased, homelessness and unemployment are due to increase and education will get worse. But more money will be funnelled to Boris Johnson's mates.
If you want to vote for this it is up to you.

@Hotankles of course you are voting for Boris Johnson if you vote for the conservative party. You really think he gives a shit about women's rights?

Yeah, the whole "we don't want your vote, we don't want you in the party" thing is pretty shitty. Very difficult to recover from that.

I think that they lost a whole contingent of potential voters there.

[quote fiheka]@Hotankles of course you are voting for Boris Johnson if you vote for the conservative party. You really think he gives a shit about women's rights?[/quote]
No one outside his constituency votes for him, and arguably we don't vote for parties either. We vote for an MP.

@SmokedDuck yes you are voting for a local MP. In reality, all parties see it as an endorsement or otherwise of their leader. All the political parties have been open about this. As long as people keep voting Conservative, Boris Johnson and his open corruption stays.

I'm not a Tory supporter at all , but they are the only party in the UK to have two women leaders!

[quote fiheka]@Hotankles of course you are voting for Boris Johnson if you vote for the conservative party. You really think he gives a shit about women's rights?[/quote]
I think if you bother to actually read my posts and others you we see we know what he like.

@Hotankles so why would you vote conservative? Because of one issue?

The poll results don’t surprise me at all, sadly.

Plenty of people here who are not those most severely impacted by the disgraceful policies implemented by this government, so don’t care enough.

I would have thought that the exposé of the £150bn of public money wasted on croneyism during COVID would have been sufficient, but too many just don’t care. They also don’t seem to care about the tens of thousands of avoidable deaths thanks to the poor response early in the pandemic and the shambolic situation aren’t Christmas.

All this “oh well the opposition is awful” - all a load of absolute crap, pushed by a media run by those benefitting most from tory policies. What is it that would be so terrible - so much worse than what we have now - if Labour were elected? Keir Starmer isn’t my ideal PM, and Corbyn would not have been either, but I’d take either over what we have now. Our politics are so skewed to the right that some people genuinely believe that Labour represent hard left ideas even when what they’re proposing is slightly left of centre.

We have so many ridiculous situations in this country, like rail companies - every single rail company in the UK has a European national railway as a large shareholder. The insane costs of our privatised system are subsidising nationalised railways around Europe. It’s an embarrassment.

I will never cease to be amazed what these people are getting away with, and the number of people that just don’t care.

And to put this in context, I would personally be financially worse off under a Labour government too. No doubt I would pay more tax, but would do so happily for better funded public services. I am not amongst those groups who are the most severely affected either, yet I still care enough to want this government out. I have two disabled children, I am appalled daily at the horrors faced by disabled people and their carers in this country. I am disgusted by the way we as a society treat our most vulnerable, and by the deliberate underfunding of the NHS. After years of “no magic money tree” mockery, the behaviour of this government over the past year shows just how much money they have to throw at shit that doesn’t even work, if it’s the right people involved.

And who will have to pay to get us back to a stable financial position? There’ll be lots of talk about how we all need to tighten our belts further, while those who’ve profited most during the pandemic will still get away with murder in terms of taxation (not surprising when you let the biggest corporations help to write your tax law).

I can’t get my head round it at all, it’s beyond depressing.

@fiheka

Yes, where I live would elect any Tory as well. Our Tory MP does not even live here and shows very little interest in the area at all. Our last Tory MP told my friend who went to him over a local issue, that he does not do local issues. Yet they still keep voting for them.

Our Tory MP chased a woman round, assaulted her and two others. He is a slimy, lying prick, and the people in my constituency voted for him, and then his wife, who defended him until he was found guilty.

One of the worst documentaries I saw on child poverty was in the UK under a Labour gov after they admitted they had failed their pledge on tackling it.

I also switch off when people blame others voting habits on the media

@babbaloushka that is awful!!

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline child poverty fell dramatically under Labour. Have you watched any documentaries revealing child poverty under the Conservative parties? The worst I saw was about 16 and 17 year olds homeless, sleeping on the streets and being sanctioned because they were late for a meeting about how to find work. No income for months. It was bloody inhuman.

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

I also switch off when people blame others voting habits on the media

Why? There is a huge correlation between consumed media (propaganda in some cases) and voting outcome. Watch 'The Social Network' if you don't understand it. The media is people's main source of information on current affairs, so when it is coming parcelled and packaged in prejudice and bias, it has a massive effect on public opinion. No one gets their views from thin air.

[quote babbaloushka]@Blackberrycream This isn't a point of concession or antagonism, but would you be able to explain a bit better what happened? I was under the impression it involved removing a clause from the IPT that forbid speaking negatively of Israel, and thus was interpreted as anti-Semitic, but I'm now thinking there might have been more that I missed. Every day is a learning day.[/quote]
Denial of Israel's right to exist is considered to be anti-semitic. You are free however to criticise Israel's actions and policies.

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

One of the worst documentaries I saw on child poverty was in the UK under a Labour gov after they admitted they had failed their pledge on tackling it.

FSM? The wealth divide in this country is at the worst recorded, there are a record number of children living in poverty, but also a record number of billionaires, many of whom are related to or affiliated with the Conservative Government, like Sunak's wife, Dyson, Murdoch etc.

@DdraigGoch Great name, and I thought it was contentious with the right to freedom of speech? Anti-zionism is different from anti-semitism, and I think that's the core issue.