To despair that people still vote Tory given their track record and outright dishonesty?

[flashbac]

I don't get it. Its depressing. We deserve better than this surely? Why give them the green light? What kind of society do we want? One where liars get our approval?

I'm sure no other political party lie either, OP.

Politicians are nothing but self serving cunts.

There is a difference between a lie and giving away billions of public money to your friends for contracts that don't deliver.

@fiheka

There is a difference between a lie and giving away billions of public money to your friends for contracts that don't deliver.

Horrible corruption and cronyism. Even that isn't as big of a betrayal as giving away women's sex based rights in my book.

Without an effective opposition, people will vote for the least best option.

We need the opposition parties to step up and start saying what THEIR plans will be, what THEY will do when in office, etc. We've had years of the opposition just whingeing and rubbishing the Tories and it's tedious. Anyone can criticise - it's the simplest thing in the World. What we are sadly lacking is an opposition party that has plans and aspirations of it's own and self belief they can really win. How about some positivity rather than the Labour doom and gloom?

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind I do not support the idea that nothing else matters. That the increasing poverty, inequality, real hardship many people are facing does not matter as much.

So this business of Boris being personally objectionable.

If you look at PMs historically, and other leaders, it's not all that clear that there is a significant correlation between doing effective work politically and good character in their personal lives.

Probably we all have a line with that stuff that we would find difficult to cross, in terms of voting for someone that is personally a twat, for some it might be criminal activity, for some it will be less than that. But many people place relatively greater weight on what such people may actually accomplish politically up to that line, rather than whether they consider the person distasteful.

I think BJ is distasteful, and KS isn't. But I think that KS could easily end up passing laws that would be problematic long term in ways I think are significant, and I think a lot of his MPs are sheep in terms of ideological positions, and potentially dangerous sheep.

@fiheka just what do you think Labour are actually going to do? This is a big concern for most people and along with the NHS etc has been one of my reasons for voting for Labour but honestly, what will Labour do about it?

I can only speak from my own experience but I have found (under a Tory government) that we have reasonable state support in this country. Other than the delay to receive UC which I think it wrong (not sure if this has now changed), I have benefitted massively from it. Nasty situation of separating from an abusive husband- I received what I think is a decent amount of money for myself and my DC whilst I got back on my feet (as well as good support from the job centre who recognised in the early days I was in no fit state to work after what I'd been through and put no pressure on me). I did in fact go back to work quite quickly anyway, working more than the 16 hours than I would have been expected to, and I was topped up. Less than two years down the line I am back to working full time and I'm still receiving a small amount of UC on top of my salary.

I agree completely that there are problems with it but the welfare system did entirely what is was supposed to do- it supported me when I was in desperate need, allowed me to get back on my feet and because of this I was in a better position quite quickly and then able to work. It's not entirely a cruel system that doesn't help- I was in dire straits without a penny and it helped me hugely.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind I would settle for having any government that is not corrupt.

@LemonRoses

I agree. It’s incredible that some of our poorest communities will still vote for them. I cannot understand how people would vote for such a total lack on integrity I cannot understand how people are willing to accept one of the highest excess death rates in the world just because they can now sit outside Weatherspoons. I sadly believe they feel Brexit was a win because of the referendum result and the fact we’ve left the EU bit aren’t seeing the devastation it has reaped. Mainly I think it’s really sad that there is a move towards far right politics, othering and a lack of compassion for those less fortunate.

Exactly this. It's so sad that people will accept horrifying behaviours and attitudes that would have been unthinkable before the current climate.

[quote fiheka]@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind I would settle for having any government that is not corrupt.[/quote]
You'll be waiting forever and a day then.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind no that is not true. Previous governments have not given away billions of public money to friends for little in return.
This is the lie that is being seeded that they are all the same. It is not true. Prime Ministers in the past have resigned for far less.

@fiheka

There is a difference between a lie and giving away billions of public money to your friends for contracts that don't deliver.

The problem is at every level of politics.

Local councils are just as bad as the House of Commons - look at Liverpool.

Add up every back scratching deal, done in the back room of some leisure centre, town hall or social gathering and they are the nails in the coffin of trust for the electorate.

For every PPE scandal at Government level, there's a dodgy deal done at local level - by Tories, Lib Dems and Labour.

No one trusts any politician - local or national.

I could tell you why people vote Tory and I've heard this from Tories a thousand times (haven't always voted Labour but never Tory), I just massively, massively disagree and think they're very wrong.

@fiheka like the beacon of truth and integrity that is Tony Blair? How he hasn't ended up on trial for war crimes is beyond me. Middle East Peace Envoy? Fucking hell.

I'm not particularly woke either and suspect plenty of Labour activists wouldn't want me in the party - in fact I know they wouldn't. But "[The Tories] are now the LEAST BAD option when it comes to defending our specific sex-based rights and protections" - fine, but I also have to balance this with having seen my disabled friends and relatives' lives being made deliberately, materially worse by the Tories. I have to balance this with having seen local authority cuts shut down local services.

I cannot agree. A quick google will demonstrate that Labour has sleaze problems of its own. In Liverpool and Sandwell to name but two areas. I have voted for different parties over my lifetime, but at this stage, I cannot name a single member of the Labour shadow cabinet outsider of Starmer, or a single policy which differentiates Labour. Let me be honest after Corbyn it will take time before most of us would trust Labour again.

No other Prime Minister of any party has within living memory given billions of pounds of public money to his friends for very little in return.
Any other Prime Minister would have been forced to resign.

@Brainwave89 yes which is why those councillors have been forced out.
Every party has individuals who are not honourable. In the past every party got rid of them. Until now.

"Starmer is a lawyer for God's sake - a whole career built on getting the guilty off and screwing the innocent." - well, let's never hope you need legal representation!

It's always been a problem. The Labour leader's stance on the Iraq War supporting the US led invasion and leading to thousands of deaths put me off a party I'd frequently voted for, but if I'd been in Robin Cook's constituency I would have been torn. In many areas voters are effectively disenfranchised because they're living in a Tory or Labour heartland. As a woman I'm hearing confusing messages from all parties bar the Tories. But regionally I dislike their policies and in my neck of the woods the ballots were for regional/local/police board.

My point is our democracy isn't perfect.

@crosstalk I am surprised that a leader from 20 years ago puts you off a party. Does Theresa May or David Cameron put you off the Conservative party?
Personally, I judge a party based on its current leader.

@FOJN

I haven't RTFT but have skimmed some bits to see I have triggered some Tory voters.

You started a thread but haven't read it?

Perhaps you feel despair because despite posters willingness to engage you have opted to remain ignorant about alternative points of view. Posters have been very open about their reasons for voting Conservative, read the thread it's informative.

Yup.

[quote fiheka]@crosstalk I am surprised that a leader from 20 years ago puts you off a party. Does Theresa May or David Cameron put you off the Conservative party?
Personally, I judge a party based on its current leader.[/quote]
Maybe you need to look at what the other parties are doing. Then you might figure out why people are voting Tory in

[quote fiheka]@Brainwave89 yes which is why those councillors have been forced out.
Every party has individuals who are not honourable. In the past every party got rid of them. Until now.[/quote]
I agree. I can’t believe Lisa Nandy is still in Labour. She told me to leave. So I did

@Hotankles not the point I made at all.
I make my voting decisions based on current leaders of parties. And hell would freeze over before I would vote for someone as corrupt as Boris Johnson. He should be in prison.
But I would have voted for Theresa May over Corbyn.
Leaders matter. And Boris Johnson is the worst leader of any main political party in Britain for a long time.