To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

It is very hard to disentangle the effects of family background vs schooling when looking at the attributes of those children who attend private / state schools.

I am not aware of any research that looks at 'matched pairs' - ie children from very similar family backgrounds in terms of income, parental occupation and parental education who have gone to different school types. I suspect that the differences for children from matched backgrounds will depend almost entirely on the individual school, not whether it is state or private.

My family is an example, though an old one now.

Child A - tiny, very poor 11-16 state comp, followed by slightly larger state 6th form in neighboring small town .
Child B - same state comp, followed by private 6th form on scholarship.
Child C - very good private boarding school on scholarship throughout

A-level grades almost identical (Child C took 4, others took 3).

Universities attended of identical quality, all for similar subjects, and final grades v similar (2 x 2:1, 1x1st).

Common factor: identical family background and educational aspirations.

@cantkeepawayforever I assume neither of the state comps visited by child a or b were in failing schools in deprived areas that are struggling

I know quite a few kids who have done really well in "failing schools". Including one who went off to Oxford a couple of years ago - middle class kid, deprived area, school in special measures. I suspect that good parental support made all the difference.

[quote lovepickledlimes]@cantkeepawayforever I assume neither of the state comps visited by child a or b were in failing schools in deprived areas that are struggling[/quote]
It was. It was a (just) ex secondary modern - final year of SM intake was the top year of the school when Child A attended. All but 1 of the teachers dated from SM days. Vast majority of children took CSEs, and one teacher taught the wrong syllabus for the O-level because it was in the same class as the CSE-takers and they couldn't be bothered to teach both.

Entrenched rural poverty and lack of aspiration. I have just looked it up and it is (still) in Special Measures all these years later.

@paralysedbyinertia

I know quite a few kids who have done really well in "failing schools". Including one who went off to Oxford a couple of years ago - middle class kid, deprived area, school in special measures. I suspect that good parental support made all the difference.

That's pretty much an exact parallel of my family's situation.

@cantkeepawayforever, I'm sure that there are loads of these examples.

The school attended by this particular child was actually at the very bottom of our list for dd. I'd have sent her private rather than sending her there, primarily because of known issues with racism (dd is mixed race). I still think she would have been fine academically, though - despite the deprived cohort and ongoing special measures, they actually get some great results and send kids on to some very good universities.

Contrary to what some might think, even the worst state schools are not full of hopeless reprobates.

perceived value isn't the same as actual value
Very true. We fell into this trap. My DH was privately educated so assumed it was better and had all kinds of assumptions about the deficiencies of the state sector. I went to pretty awful schools and though I excelled academically I was very unhappy so wanted something better for my children. So naturally we opted for the local independent. And it was fine - a very nice school in many ways. When we left, people wanted to know the gossip. What had gone wrong? Where was the scandal? And there wasn't any really. There were a few issues but I think you get that anywhere but the main reason we left was because it didn't represent value for money. We have good state schools where we live and the difference was just not worth the money. We realised that because our children were doing lots of extra curricular activities with children from the local school and we got to know them and their parents quite well. The gulf we had imagined just didn't exist. Obviously things are different in different places and if it had been the choice of independent or my old school I would have sold a kidney to fund the private school. Sometimes private will be a far better choice. But not always. It's easy to make assumptions but they're not akways right.

@MrsAvocet

perceived value isn't the same as actual value Very true. We fell into this trap. My DH was privately educated so assumed it was better and had all kinds of assumptions about the deficiencies of the state sector. I went to pretty awful schools and though I excelled academically I was very unhappy so wanted something better for my children. So naturally we opted for the local independent. And it was fine - a very nice school in many ways. When we left, people wanted to know the gossip. What had gone wrong? Where was the scandal? And there wasn't any really. There were a few issues but I think you get that anywhere but the main reason we left was because it didn't represent value for money. We have good state schools where we live and the difference was just not worth the money. We realised that because our children were doing lots of extra curricular activities with children from the local school and we got to know them and their parents quite well. The gulf we had imagined just didn't exist. Obviously things are different in different places and if it had been the choice of independent or my old school I would have sold a kidney to fund the private school. Sometimes private will be a far better choice. But not always. It's easy to make assumptions but they're not akways right.

DD does extracurricular activities with quite a lot of kids from local independent schools. There are a few parents who quiz me/dd on various aspects of her school experience, and I often get the impression that they are trying to judge how it measures up. One of them said recently that it made her wonder what they were paying for. So I suspect that your experience isn't unusual.

One of dd's close friends at school has two older siblings who went to the independent boys' grammar/girls' high school in our area. He was desperate to go to the state school with his friends and his parents relented as they had been pretty underwhelmed by both of the private schools. They have been astonished at what the local (fairly ordinary) state comp offers, and their ds is outperforming both of his privately educated siblings.

I'm with you, I wouldn't have hesitated to pay for private if I had felt that it would make a real difference, but in many cases, I just don't think it's good value for money. It depends on the child, and it depends on the school.

One of them said recently that it made her wonder what they were paying for. So I suspect that your experience isn't unusual.

There are some really, really egregious examples of this locally - schools that say they are 'two to three years ahead of the state curriculum'... from whom pupils transfer to state and find they are not only not ahead, but in fact well behind.

I really, really don't like the job of telling a parent who has been told for years that their child is 'getting ahead of their peers at state school' that as a bog standard state primary we are in fact sufficiently concerned that their child may end up on our SEN register. I really, REALLY don't like having to do it repeatedly over the years.

I suspect it is less common in secondary, because the curriculum is more obvious and transparent, but it definitely exists in some private primaries.

We’ve done state and private, switching for years so one dc prep other state primary and reversed and still I find it hard to judge.

The primary was very mixed but dc got into academic selective (not tutored just past papers) so it was good in the end. But state secondary has been great for other dc but maybe prep helped him in some way.

Tricky to gauge unless extremes, maybe easier then.

Experienced both. Private better with extra curricular stuff, specialisms in teachers and smaller class sizes. State better because shorter days so more family time, less homework so more family time and greater freedom to learn through play. Seem to do similar academic work but time will tell. DC seems more relaxed at state school but it’s a good one with smaller class sizes. Interestingly one of the teachers at the private school took their DC out because too much pressure.

Either way I do think it’s family relationships and parental input that builds wellbeing, supports achievement and makes the most difference and there are always tutors to help academically if needed and you don’t go private.

Self confidence can be a double edged sword. If it lacks substance then the person can spectacularly fail. DD (now in 3rd year at a RG uni on a physics course) sees a lot of grammar and privately educated students who are fine when they know the topic but really flounder when they have to work something new out for themselves.

DD was at a very down-at-heel comp in a down-at-heel town. The students represented the community (it's the only school in the town). This meant that subjects were organised in ability based sets. DD had a good friends right through school and an especially close set during 6th form.

The real negative with the school was that it had little experience in sending students to RG universities much less Oxford or Cambridge. At A level I felt there was a lot of teaching to grades sufficient to attend one of the local universities but not so much for attaining the highest grades (the honourable exception to this was maths). Students had to learn to tutor themselves and be very proactive in their learning.

I think the original post was about wanting to accept a huge discount and the ops husband was unsure. Was it worth it? We all have different experiences. If you see the value it is your money and if you care to spend it on education it is your business. Some will see private schools as the devil's work. I went to a comp but later achieved two Oxford degrees. Would I send my children there? I would not! I was lucky to have a Cambridge educated mother and a forces father. The both loved reading. We had very little after a family feud. The op is neither an entitled MNetter or stupid right wing person. She is just unsure. Personally I paid for my children's schooling. My choice, my bill. However I have also worked for free for many years within local schools. I think choosing a school is the hardest thing you ever do for your children. When I got invited to my second reunion I sent them matches!

For me the most discernible difference between dn (private) and ds (state) was how much handholding was needed. Dn needed so much input from his teachers (I suppose that's what SIL paid for) where ds was far more independent.
Now I'd also say dn's sense of entitlement probably originated there as well. Ds had a drive to work hard and an ambition to do well, dn thought that it should fall into his lap . Even at 32 when his parents have just funded four years at uni (swapped courses after first year) there is no sense of urgency that he should actually get paid work (hasn't worked even part time or in holidays whilst at uni) instead he's having the summer off whilst looks into being a blogger Suspect SIL will be funding him for the next 32 years as well.

My dd was good friends with a girl in her London comp (not a sought-after school at all) who got 13 A at GCSE. Infact my dd and all of her close circle got 11 or 12 GCSE with mainly A or A grades, a small smattering of Bs. I drove past the school the other day and had a huge pang of nostalgia about what a happy place it had been for her.

Neither of my dc feel they have missed out because we didn't privately educate them even though we are literally surrounded by prestigious private schools where we live.

Might be worth op asking a lawyer for their thoughts re the offer and contract. I personally don't like triple linked offer. If one fails they all have their funding removed.Age is always a factor. I don't remember the age of the oldest girl? If it is 12+, ho hum. She may welcome a change or hate you forever.

A lot depends on parents too. If parents are intelligent and at least moderately high achievers, they read and discuss issues, etc, listen to and encourage their children and take them to interesting places, that will rub off on the children. They will be well informed, interested in life and confident.

600 pupil school is not large if that is through primary to 6th form. 50 per year is not a lot of people to find friends in. This is especially for older children where friendship groups have already been formed.

My state educated DCs did other activities including music (we have a good county music service). Being outside of school these activities gave them a second set of friends, taking the pressure off school friendships.

The fees is a worry. You cant afford to pay full fees. If the school doesnt work out then you will be returning to the state system mid stream which means you will end up with schools with spaces rather than schools you would choose.

One of the saddest threads I have read on MN was a poster who was having to take her DD out of her fee paying school in her GCSE year because the family had literally run out of money. There had been a business failure, all lines of credit had been exhausted and they already owed fees to the school.

Redundancy happens even after 20 years with an employer (it happened to me).

I spoke to a chief executive in the public sector a number of years ago. She was state educated, her sister was privately educated. I remember her telling me that she felt her state school prepared her well for a life of dealing with people from very different backgrounds. In particular she said she benefited from having to sometimes deal with bullies (I know it sounds a bit crazy) and difficult children who became difficult adults. Her view was that her sister was a less resilient individual because she had been surrounded by people her whole life who had similar backgrounds and experiences. She had never had to deal with difficult situations or people and found it difficult when she joined the working world as a result.

I thought it was a really interesting point of view. No idea how true it is though.

We have a meeting booked with the bursar and head regarding a lot of the queries so hopefully we’ll get some good answers. If not then we won’t go for it. One of our options could be to send the youngest to the nearest state primary for a couple of years, to start the private one in Y7 instead but this may affect our offer so we’ll see what they say.
I’ve also got two job interviews this week so fingers crossed for those.
I’m certainly not going to be sending only one or two of them private. Either they all go or none of them go because otherwise I think that would lead to resentment and it’s not really fair. They all want to go so that’s good.

Op surely if all want to go, just send them.

I could list endless examples of where state school education (inc grammar) went horribly wrong, or brilliantly well. Ditto the private schools.

But what happens if children go to the state school, and all hate it? Life long resentment that you denied them a chance.

If they go private, and it all goes wrong/bursaries withdrawn etc, then you cross that bridge. It may be painful but at least you’ll have tried.

Yolo etc.

A lot of the generalisations are just anecdotes. you could equally say you might be better at dealing with bullying in the Tom Brown's School days style boarding schools and all boys schools than the roughest comp. Also wher I live there are top of the range state schools - people go off to Henrietta B., Watford Grammar or into London for those specialist state six forms where they get lots into Oxbridge. Nevermind having massive choice of private schools including those for children who are not at all bright. If instead you go up to parts of the NE where I am from the choicx of different schools varies. Here in outer London we have a primary school allowing primary girls to wear head covering near my house, a hindu primary, C of E - just vast choice.

I have never found my private school educated children unable to deal with people of all kinds of backgrounds. I though that was one thing private schools could do better than state actually - the ability to talk to anyone.

Your DH objects out of financial worries, especially as regards pension savings.

So you need to address these together- what investments you have, what pension pots, what savings, when does he want to retire, what kids if post-retirement lifestyle, etc.

It sounds like neither of you has any ideological feeling against private education, or doubts about it being “the best thing for you”, aside from finances. Therefore you just tackle long term affordability.

I though that was one thing private schools could do better than state actually - the ability to talk to anyone.

I think that's a bit of a myth tbh. I have worked with a few privately educated individuals who definitely thought that they had the ability to talk to anyone, but they didn't always have the self awareness to recognise how they were actually coming across. Having said that, not all state educated people have this ability either. Ultimately, I suspect that it comes down to personality rather than schooling.

One thing which I think my dd has gained from being in a state comprehensive is a much more nuanced understanding of different circumstances and backgrounds and a much greater awareness of her own relative privilege. Having moved from an ethically diverse but very privileged, middle class primary school, she was somewhat judgmental in year 7 of kids who seemed very different from her - maybe even fearful in some cases. As she has got to know these kids over the years, her understanding of them has really grown. Some are still very different from dd, but she is able to see past those differences in a way that she wouldn't have done if she hadn't got to know them.

I don't think dd would have had her eyes opened in quite the same way if she had gone to an independent school. Having said that, there are plenty of kids at the state comp who don't really mix outside their immediate group either, so it isn't a given that everyone will go on the journey that dd has travelled. Again, I think personality is a major factor - dd is naturally very extroverted and gregarious, she loves people and will chat to anyone and everyone.

In the end, it's a complex cocktail of different factors that make us into the people we eventually become - innate personality and intelligence, early experiences, parental backgrounds and parenting styles, schooling, peer groups, extracurricular opportunities etc. One child will benefit from a certain type of environment in a different way from another. One child will struggle in a certain type of environment more than another. I don't think it can ever be reduced to something as simple as private vs state.

I have noticed zero difference in manners or social skills thinking about it in the many private / state young teens I know and give lifts to. If anything the state kids I know are more confident and polite but the parents all confident professional types themselves I think that’s where it comes from rather than school.