To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

If you want to work and use your salary for school fees then go for it. My dd got a 50 percent scholarship. She had so many sporting opportunities. She had outstanding coaching in hockey. Several of the ladies in the Olympic hockey team came through her school. She also gained huge confidence and poise that she gained from public speaking and extra curricular drama and music. We offered our son to go as we thought that would be fair even though he would not get a scholarship. He refused as he said he did not want to go to school on Saturdays. My dd used to be a day girl and leave on minibus at 7.15am and return home at 6.40pm each evening. She had already done 2 hours prep for the next day so when she got home her t in me was her own. She did have to give up Saturdays to go to school and participate in team sports. Saturday school finished at 4pm and they called it a half day! She got grades for academic performance every 6 weeks and if she slipped below a B+ her House Mother would CV coach her back up. She also made some very nice friends she still meets up with occasionally.

@Fayelina

I have no experience of private school. All I can add is that I’ve been surprised at the number of disruptive children there are at my child’s secondary school. Big school, not a bad school but lots of children and frequent disruption. If I had the money i’d pay just for the smaller classes and got to be a better learning environment.

This is the issue that my middle child is facing. She’s got some very disruptive children in her classes (I suspected they have additional needs as she says they never get told off) and just last week she came home from school in bits because she’d got lots of answers wrong in her French test (she adores french) because they had to listen to an audio recording and answer questions. One child wasn’t taking the test because he didnt want to and so sat there for the entire lesson shouting out over the top of the recording. She says this happens a lot in lessons. She went to the head about racial abuse that her favourite geography teacher (who was from Kenya) was being subjected to by several children and my daughter was so upset at it. It happened all the time, which is what prompted her to tell the head. That teacher has now left the school but I don’t know if that would have happened anyway.

Equally, let's say a child at private school has been mercilessly bullying your child - but the bully has siblings in school, and more to come...

This is exactly what happened to us when our DS was eight and in private school. He was having a really hard time from one particular boy and we ended up having to raise it with the headmaster. We actually heard the opening conversation from the boy's mum as she came in to the head just after us, and it went "Let me remind you that I have three children at your school...etc".

We put him back in his (much missed) state school the following term. He starts at UCL in September...the bullying boy from his private school is meanwhile helping out at his parents' hairdressers ...

On the disruptive children point I don't think private schools are doing anything "better" or different than state schools it's just that for many parents they are paying a significant amount of money for their children's education that could alternatively be spent on a larger house, cars, holidays or even in a pension pot!

As a result if a parent finds their child
's education being disputed they will complain and more inclined to switch schools if not resolved because we are talking about real money here. Equally the parent of the disruptive child will come down hard on them for wasting their money. Or the child itself will feel guilty about wasting their parents money.

Sadly because state education is free some parents or children don't value it as they should. This is human nature and we all do it in some form for example people used to take loads of supermarket carrier bags when they were free but became a lot more careful even at a cost of just 10 pence. Or how many McDomalds napkins do you take because they are free versus how many do you really need.

[quote NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]@PlanDeRaccordement

There are only two state options for us locally, both 12 miles away. One we didn’t like at all, it was very run down and results not great. The other, which the eldest two go to is a good school but we were told they did lots of music and drama, and that’s not been happening, even pre COVID. They don’t even have a school orchestra anymore!

We don’t have grammar schools in our area - the nearest one is 25 miles away.

The school I want to send them to has an excellent reputation for their ‘family’ feel. My mum works there and can confirm this. Lots of the staff send their kids there so there are plenty of day pupils who aren’t stonkingly rich.[/quote]
Another red flag for me, full of staff kids it just smells of desperation to get bums on seats to keep afloat and you can bet those kids will win all the prizes on speech day!

Only you can answer that question. I loathe, hate and detest private schools and what they do to the educational landscape here, but I'm not you. You may have different thoughts and different values, and I don't think it would be fair for me to judge you and your motivations.

What I absolutely cannot bear, are people who think that you are basically guilty of child abuse if you can afford to send your kids to a private school and don't.

@Flemingshat

You cannot let your principles stand in the way of your children getting a decent education.

I went to an inner city London state school with a 20% GCSE pass rate, where over 50% of pupils spoke English as a second language.

I have 12 GCSEs all at either A* or A grade, 4 A grade A-levels, a first class undergraduate degree from a RG University plus an MA (with distinction).

There actually are some parents who put their principles first. In my mother's case she felt it was worth us perhaps getting an A at GCSE rather than an A* in order to bring us up in accordance with her principles.

I disliked school intensely, but the reasons I disliked it would have been the same at a private school.

My own view is that if you're the kind of parent who would post on MN worrying that there isn't a school orchestra at your child's state school, then your child is going to achieve their potential wherever they go to school. The types of children who would benefit the most from private education are sadly the ones who will never, ever get the chance to go.

I went also went to one of the bottom 10% of state schools in the UK, for both financial reasons and due to my parents principles. I gained lots of really important things from doing so- I learned about poverty and inequality, issues with gangs, and my school had a high percentage of pupils from asylum seeker backgrounds and I learned a lot about what was going on in the wider world. I mixed with a really heterogenous group of young people, socioeconomically and ethnically.

Im a doctor now, with an interest in reducing health inequalities. And I think I understand a bit more about the lives of a large proportion of my more complex patients compared to my privately educated peers.

I think what I’m trying to get at is that there is educational value in a state school, but in a different way to a private school.

Im a doctor now, with an interest in reducing health inequalities. And I think I understand a bit more about the lives of a large proportion of my more complex patients compared to my privately educated peers.

@J060, thanks for sharing this. My dd is hoping to go into medicine, and I absolutely agree that the learning about people and society that she has gained from her state comp will be invaluable to her in that career. She has so much more empathy and compassion now, and so much less judgement, than she did when she first moved up to secondary from her very "naice" middle class primary school. I really value that shift in her.

I really hate this attitude of “if they’re bright they’ll do well anywhere”! I was the bright kid at the dodgy comp where academic achievement was ridiculed rather than encouraged
People who say that have never been the bright middle class kid in a state school where the teacher has to cater to the lowest common denominator. I got ignored a LOT and just told to read a book or teach someone else, because I was too far ahead of the others and they needed time to catch up. I was never given challenging work that stretched my abilities. There were no opportunities outside of the classroom. There were a higher than average number of children with SEN and no funds to support them so they were just left to be disruptive with no support. There were a lot of children from families where nobody in the previous two generations had ever had a job, and their main goal in life was to cause trouble and get a council house and benefits after leaving school. There were pupils with parents who were alcoholics or drug addicts or prostitutes. There were 13yo girls who sucked cock behind the bus stop and bullied anyone who didn’t. Sexual abuse was commonplace. Achievement was something to be ashamed of because you were a swot. At 6th form there were a number of kids who blatantly told the teacher they were only there because their mum didn’t want to lose her child benefit but they had no intention of doing any work. Not only does being in that environment hold you back, it also damages you mentally and causes lifelong issues.

Compare that to a private school with loads of extra curricular opportunities, where children are mostly from high earning families that value achievement and they’ll get told off if they don’t work hard, where parents are respectable and demand certain standards from their children, where there are funds to support pupils with SEN, where disruptors are quickly removed because parents demand it. It’s a whole different ball game. For a bright middle class kid it’s the difference between being surrounded with people who are like you or being the odd one out and being isolated and bullied.

@paralysedbyinertia and @J060 I am glad it worked out in both your cases. I do think so much also does depended on the child. A confident, bright and self assured child will flourish in most schools.

There are kids for who being in a class room where they do on some level have to cope with more challenging behaviour could have a negative impact. I was extremely shy, highly strung and this kind of environment would have probably not been suitable for me at all.

Sounds like you've it all worked out. It is a great opportunity for the DC.

Ds had a bursary for top private school of 90% the bursary was awarded for the duration of his time at school. Our income at the time was under £80k. We were told by one school he sat for that they had very few bursary applications that year. I think that some schools are very well funded for bursaries, often by former pupils in the form of legacy and as such have to be awarded as bursaries not used to improve facilities etc., as are scholarships. To keep charitable status they have to be seen to be supporting families that would otherwise struggle. I think a lot of parents just don’t know that private schooling is within reach for them. The school ds attended gave out bursaries up to110% to cover uniforms etc., They had a clear policy of enabling any child to attend as long as they could pass the entrance exam. It definitely followed from place offers we got that the more expensive the fees the less you were expected to pay.

My daughter went to boarding school and really loved it, so much to do and lovely grounds. Went from 11 until 18 and managed 4 A levels at grade A and went to university for 6 years. I had help towards the end due to family circumstances changing. Now the fees are over £40k+ many people get help, you just need to ask. Go to the open days and talk to the girls that are there

It must be an exceptionally poor school attended by your daughter if teachers are racially abused.

I checked back with my children last night. Son will be sending his children to private school, daughter would not! My daughter was keen to point out she has met far more interesting people at her 6th form with 45 nationalities. As she hopes to work with the police she thinks her current college has opened her eyes a bit more. They have had city issues but are judged 'outstanding' with a famous SEN department including physically disabled. What you do with your money is your business just watch the SEN bit. If needs are not met it can develop into poor mental health and non attendance.

For some people politics and principle will always come first, because all children matter, not just their own. The two tier system we have in this country, creates further inequalities and for this reason, I would never send my children to private school. My parents were both privately educated, as were many of my friends and many hold the same view. Education is not just about extra hockey or music lessons, it’s about learning how to navigate a complex world, with a wide range of people from all backgrounds and nationalities. The way some on this thread talk is quite shocking to me. Is it to anyone else?

The investment from parents is of course greater if you’re paying too...during Covid the fury from parents because they ‘ were still paying’ and not ‘ getting what they paid for’ tells me all I need to know. It’s a commodity. Education should not be.

I have 2 dd's at state school. For us the pros are:

More competition which drives up standards
Excellent pastoral support
Wraparound care
Brilliant extra curricular activities
Fewer snobs and less money for buying drugs

The children have much lovely manners, doors are always held open, all children saying good morning etc. When compared with the private and public schools I have been in there is no difference, except the standard of education and variety of subjects is much higher in my DDs' state schools.
The schools aspirations for its children are good, there is massive encouragement to aim higher and a total absence of ENTITLEMENT.

Good luck.

Throwing money at things doesn't always ensure a better outcome.
If there are extracurricular activities that are provided at a private school but not at your local state school, it is always possible to do them outside of school. It would be miles cheaper and your children would enjoy more parental involvement in their lives.

I think bright children will do well anywhere IF they have a supportive and academic background. Those whose parents are either not interested or not very clued up may do better in a private school. Private school is of course good for the sow’s ears type......

I am still confused at the bursaries for those on £100k + , sahms and with buy-to-lets. I know bursaries are a school’s discretion, but I’m surprised this is in accordance with their stated policies. Who are the schmucks paying full fees?! Surely they would be entitled to be very angry if they found there were reduced fees for those with very much not reduced circumstances.

People who say that have never been the bright middle class kid in a state school where the teacher has to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Erm, I was. I was the studious kid in my bog standard comp who sat in a classroom with chewed up bits of paper ("ernies") flying around the classroom and kids bouncing in and out of their seats. I just got on with the work.

It didn't hold me back. I got excellent exam results, went on to Oxbridge etc. I still value the experience that I had at my state comp.

The behaviour at dd's state school is infinitely better than it was at my school,, despite similar levels of socio-economic diversity. The teaching has been fantastic, and she is thriving. Yes, there are some kids with some issues, but they do not get in the way of dd's learning.

@thenovice
great post. I would also add that at our local comp a big pro is that they are very quick to report sexual harrasment allegations to the police instead of neatly brushing them under the carpet.

What do your daughters think? They are currently at the state school and probably know people at the private school. If they are up for it, then they are aware that they are missing out on something. That should have some weight. And if they are not keen, I wouldn't move a teenage girl over her objections. That will not end well.

But having all three in a private school (with a longer school day) would mean no need for wraparound care when you go back to work, and all three in the same school.

Plus if they are musical or sporty you simply can't compare what they will get at state school with a good private school. To make up for it you would need to do at least a dozen runs a week to clubs, training, matches and lessons. To do this on top of the toll that going back to work will take on you physically (and on your life as a family) with all the house and childcare admin now also crammed into the weekends? You will spend every spare minute taxi-ing children, running errands, doing laundry, making dentist appointments, etc. This will certainly take a toll on your health and your family life.

She’s got some very disruptive children in her classes

At the local primary DD soared, getting grades above her age group for all SATS. We sent my DD to a state secondary school school, because it did physics and chemistry separately at GCSE. Difficult to do sciences at Uni with physics/chem combined. The local private school was poor at science. You can catch up/ do extra classes at home etc. with arts subjects, but not with sciences and maths.

There were disruptive children in her class, and the teachers spent most of their time controlling them. DD slipped through the net, they thought "she was a nice child, but dim". As I worked in London (not many openings for my skills,) and was spending 4-5 hours a day travelling I wasn't there to see that she did homework etc. Despite my protests, and the evidence from 1st school, they never seemed to change their minds.
Luckily she went on to six form college and a VERY good teacher was having none of it and made her work. She found she like working and doing well, she later took an M.Sc, and worked at a high level in a major industry.

I think bright children will do well anywhere IF they have a supportive and academic background.

I hear this said so often and I'm just not sure it's true. They are at school all day every day five days a week. That is the key environment. If you are at a school where academic excellence is derided by your peers and some teachers (I was; DC were at state primary) then it will have a lasting detrimental effect.

A London centric issue but the driver for us choosing the independent route was that in our Borough there was not a single state school offering: triple science with a differentiated amount of f2f teaching, a choice of mfl's with some offering only Spanish and no classical language. On that basis we felt the quality of the overall education was lacking. One deputy head actually told me they didn't expect many students to enter medicine or law so the investment would be disproportionately. I do not think that offer and attitude represents a comprehensive education; rather a secondary modern.