To find it unacceptable that society in general expects women to do most domestic tasks

[nonaomi]

I still think most men and women think that women are responsible for 'housework'. It's often joked about how men are 'messy' and 'useless'..and lots of women I know, don't seem to mind this role.

Is this just in my circle, or is that other's experience too ?

@Natty13 "So I can't see this from any other perspective than my own. "- well, that's good show of empathy you have going on there!

If you're really serious about how to change things, I would start by educating ourselves- there is a TON of research done (by lady-scholars, and a few proper men-scholars natch) on how insidiously these gender stereotypes work to the detriment of women. However this research is mostly read only by other lady-scholars, and as we can see by the comments on this thread, very rarely make their way out of academia, and whenever they do, they are drowned out by a chorus of "Not all Men!" "Not all Husbands"! "My Husband does the Dishes!" "Women love Cleaning!"

@nonaomi YANBU!

And it's funny how so many women on here have 'circles' where all the men share the housework 50/50, and in some cases, do ALL of it!

Amazing how they just automatically believe that all the friends in their CIRCLE have husbands/ partners who do most of the housework/grunt work/childcare.............

And there's a LOT of posters who have husbands/partners who just LOVE cleaning, and household chores!!!

In reality, it IS women who do most of it, in ALL 'circles.' Always has been, and it probably always will be. And like hell do men LOVE cleaning, and doing household chores. LMFAO.

And the 'it's a class issue' line just HAD to be mentioned (see the post at 23.43 yesterday (Saturday...) which is basically saying 'it's only women in the lower classes who do most of the housework.'

Good old-fashioned snobbery is alive and well, and rife on this thread.

Some posters never fail to deliver.

@Egghead81sorry were we talking about street cleaning here? maybe start a thread about men and street cleaning then and not derail?

But seriously, yes, you are right. They are men. And why? because again, as a society, we are conditioned to believe that men work outside, women inside. That is actually the point of the thread. However the gender inequality starts when women are vastly undercompensated (or not at all) for the work they do inside the house.

I have a cleaner twice a week. It still doesn't solve it in my house. It sounds like it solves it for a lot of posters here. But there's still a lot to do day to day, even if you have a cleaner.

We have a cleaner once a week. Apart from cleaning the kitchen each time it's used the only thing we do between her visits is tidy up.

@littlepattilou "Good old-fashioned snobbery is alive and well, and rife on this thread."

Yup.

It’s relevant because you said most cleaners were women.
I pointed out that a similar career - in cleaning, is dominated by men.

[quote littlepattilou]@nonaomi YANBU!

And it's funny how so many women on here have 'circles' where all the men share the housework 50/50, and in some cases, do ALL of it!

Amazing how they just automatically believe that all the friends in their CIRCLE have husbands/ partners who do most of the housework/grunt work/childcare.............

And there's a LOT of posters who have husbands/partners who just LOVE cleaning, and household chores!!!

In reality, it IS women who do most of it, in ALL 'circles.' Always has been, and it probably always will be. And like hell do men LOVE cleaning, and doing household chores. LMFAO.

And the 'it's a class issue' line just HAD to be mentioned (see the post at 23.43 yesterday (Saturday...) which is basically saying 'it's only women in the lower classes who do most of the housework.'

Good old-fashioned snobbery is alive and well, and rife on this thread.

Some posters never fail to deliver.[/quote]
@littlepattilou yes the class thing. Wow. I wanted clarification of what that poster meant, but was not given it. I wasn't sure if she meant that working class women do more housework than non working class women and I wanted that clarified. It really sounded like that's what she was trying to say.

[quote Evelight]@Natty13 "So I can't see this from any other perspective than my own. "- well, that's good show of empathy you have going on there!

If you're really serious about how to change things, I would start by educating ourselves- there is a TON of research done (by lady-scholars, and a few proper men-scholars natch) on how insidiously these gender stereotypes work to the detriment of women. However this research is mostly read only by other lady-scholars, and as we can see by the comments on this thread, very rarely make their way out of academia, and whenever they do, they are drowned out by a chorus of "Not all Men!" "Not all Husbands"! "My Husband does the Dishes!" "Women love Cleaning!"[/quote]
@Evelight totally agree with this.

Whatever happened to some empathy ? Not all women have the resources ( and I don't mean financial ) to just get up and go.

Again, this is women being blamed for being treated like shit. It shouldn't be happening in the first place. And the worst thing is women blaming other women for being treated like shit.

@Egghead81You were obviously derailing, and pulling out the "what about men card". Acknowledge it. We are clearly talking about domestic labour (which isn't just cleaning, but also involves cooking/food prep, childcare, caregiving, house "admin" stuff and so on) in this thread, and why/how/if women who doing the most of it. Not about street cleaning.

However, your derail was actually useful, because your example of street-cleaners being mostly men speaks to the broader point of gender stereotyping and work.

@nonaomi "And the worst thing is women blaming other women for being treated like shit."

I agree. It's always disheartening when this happens- like an extra kick in the teeth.

I think MN, for a long time now, represents a very small minority of women, in terms of education, class, nationality and ethnicity. I have quite diverse 'circle', not just white, British, middle class and university educated, and lots of women I know do the majority of the household chores either under duress, some out of choice (they like Mrs Hunch and similar), some believe thats how it should be, sometimes it's a cultural expectation.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as lacking empathy, I'm not great at expressing myself in writing What I meant was that I literally cannot see from another point of view. I don't know anyone who lives like this close enough to understand why. The idea of living like a maid/mum to grown man is so foreign to me I can't understand why anyone would put up with it.

(Rhetorical) Why complain as if you don't have a choice? I'm quite black and white about a lot of things...if it was a choice between being with a man who expected me to do the "wife work" or going it alone I'd go it alone 10/10, no question.

No I don't think it does. I do think women create unnecessary competition between themselves to have insta ready homes and families tho, endlessly buying and tidying stuff to impress who exactly, I dont care if your dark blue kitchen cupboards with matte brass handles match the grey geometric wallpaper or if you have a kitchen from the 70s that's falling apart. All I care is your a decent person. Stop killing yourselves trying to impress people.

This is VERY important if you are married to a male or have male offspring. Do NOT pick up an iron for them either, kids yes then teach them to do it at 16. Same with household chores. Everyone steps in and helps. Ladies please stop buying clothes for grown men. They are capable, really they are. Next time you go to John Lewis of M&S look how many women there are in the men's dept choosing clothes. Then look in the ladies dept to see how many men are choosing clothes they want their wife or girlfriend to wear - you won't because men don't do this. They may look like a tramp for a bit but they will soon put a bit of effort in when they have no clothes for work. You need to stop enabling bad behavior

At first I thought it was a class issue, but then realised it isn't if in lower earning families, the women do more domestic work, but in higher income families, women are predominantly employed to do the domestic work, including childcare.

I should have added that I'm not British although I live here.... I do think it's cultural.

There may be snobbery but there’s an equal amount of defensiveness and defeatedness. The men some of us are married to, or are our dads and brothers and friends, why do you think they’re different? Or are we all lying and/or deluded? Why would that make you feel any better about the men you know who you find disappointing and not up to scratch?

@aintnothinbutagstring that's very true. My circle is more intentional. University educated and professionals, but more international. Although I also have British friends. In my culture - my mum used to find it unacceptable that I didn't have dinner on the table for my husband every night. She would ask me every day what I was cooking etc. When I told her that I didn't want it to be an expectation and I therefore didn't do it every day, she used to be shocked and would guilt trip me. It took a long time for me not to be affected by that stuff and go it my own way. Now she says I do the right thing. Because my husband is apparently one of those ' good ones ' to her. Because he changes our daughter's nappy sometime. She finds it amazing.

I wouldn't berate those who like cleaning and people like Mrs Hinch either. If you enjoy homemaking, and all that goes along with it, why is that something to look down upon? It's just another way of running down traditionally female activities, like we pay cleaners, childcare workers and carers and pittance because women's work=low value. Let's face it, Marie Kondo has done ok out of something as lowly as tidying up, it was a concept that resonated with everyone, not just women.

@Natty13 Ok fair enough, I appreciate that you live in a circle where everything is fairly divided, but at the risk of repeating myself, that is NOT the norm- as pointed out, women by far do the majority of housework and domestic labour (both paid and un/underpaid)- and this is made worse and exacerbated by the pandemic. You live in a very rarified, elite circle if you simply have no idea and no clue how it is that women end up in this situation, and cannot imagine it at all.

@aintnothinbutagstring I don't mean to sound berating of those who are enjoying the housework and cleaning, I am aware I am coming off as shrill and angry (because I am). I am not angry with individual women for doing housework, but I am angry at this social mindset we are discussing here.

I would like people to be aware that for most women, it is not a free choice, women are socially and culturally conditioned to do (and to enjoy doing)- domestic labour, and as a result, are screwed over financially.

@nonaomi, the cultural expectations on a wife is interesting. In what can be referred to as the 'Muslim world', the hotel staff used to be all male, because the woman wasn't allowed to work. These men were more than capable of all domestic duties, but would never have done the same at home because they had a wife.

" Marie Kondo has done ok out of something as lowly as tidying up, it was a concept that resonated with everyone, not just women."

Exactly. Cleaning and care work, domestic labour in itself isn't, inherently, meant to be done by women. Anybody can cook and clean- and plenty men do! However, the way this work is set up in our society is that it is mostly done by un/underpaid women. And that is unfair, sexist and it hurts men, women, and children.

nonaomi yes my DH is not British, women from his culture, whether they're educated, professional or whatever are expected to do it all at home, or the children if they are old enough. My DH said his dad would absolutely never clean or cook, it would be his mum, the children or their home help. So yes I do feel the MN view is not representative of many cultures, and particularly not of all classes.

@AnneLovesGilbert Yes, I agree, there's a lot of defensiveness in how quick people are to point out it's not their husband/dad etc.

IDGAF what ‘society at large’ thinks about women doing domestic chores. In my household, they are shared 50/50. Always have been, always will be. If some women insist on being doormats or martyrs, that’s their problem, not mine.