To find it unacceptable that society in general expects women to do most domestic tasks

[nonaomi]

I still think most men and women think that women are responsible for 'housework'. It's often joked about how men are 'messy' and 'useless'..and lots of women I know, don't seem to mind this role.

Is this just in my circle, or is that other's experience too ?

It is a fact that generally women do more, usually quite a bit more, in the home.
I became a single mum recently and I realised that not a lot changed for me, housework-wise. And it’s really put into perspective how my ex simply did not consider my time worthwhile. It was just assumed that I would do these things because he was content to live in a pigsty.
I am determined to raise my son to be independent and clean up after himself.
I think that part of the problem is my ex never lived by himself, he went from living with his mum to living with me. There was always a woman to pick up after him, and consciously or not, he expected it.

I’m sure #notallmen and that but I’m seriously considering swearing off men.

@Mumoblue it's definitely not all men. Just a lot of the ones I know !

I do food (shopping and cooking) we both tidy/clear up, dc empty and load the dishwasher (we sometimes assist), take it in turns to make the packed lunches, I managed the diary and lots of admin/banking, Dh does clothes and bedding washing and putting away (with dc help - often disastrous but I refuse to get involved), I pay for school trips on the app, Dh fills in school trip forms (I hate completing forms for no rational reason, just so so dull). It’s a fairly even split here.

Yes a cleaner weekly really hardly scratches the surface of what is involved in having a genuinely clean and tidy house

@m0therofdragons

I do food (shopping and cooking) we both tidy/clear up, dc empty and load the dishwasher (we sometimes assist), take it in turns to make the packed lunches, I managed the diary and lots of admin/banking, Dh does clothes and bedding washing and putting away (with dc help - often disastrous but I refuse to get involved), I pay for school trips on the app, Dh fills in school trip forms (I hate completing forms for no rational reason, just so so dull). It’s a fairly even split here.

Single parent here

I do it all other than weekly cleaner.

It’s full on because I choose to make it so by having very high housekeeping standards

@Egghead81

Yes a cleaner weekly really hardly scratches the surface of what is involved in having a genuinely clean and tidy house

Absolutely. Also, the cleaner needs to be managed properly too. Otherwise there is no point in my experience. I only had one cleaner so far that I didn't need to manage.

Yeah of course, it's all the fault of the silly women who married these lazy men, rather than a larger societal problem. All the women with amazing husbands who clean toilets etc, wouldn't stand for husbands who don't pull their weight in the home...

Blame the women as usual !

But women do choose to live with these men, that is a choice. I have a far bigger problem with society continually perpetuating the myth that marriage are babies are the road to nirvana and there's something wrong with you if you don't choose this path. If women choose to believe this and pursue it at all costs that is on them. Neither are compulsory. I have no issues with lazy men as I'd never choose to live with one.

But it's always a joke that the husband is useless and doesn't do enough.

Anyone who says that is helping to create the next generation of useless, lazy, messy, dirty selfish men. And that’s on both parents.

It’s also not at all funny. It reflects poorly on the women you know who go along with this dangerous unnecessary narrative. Society and social expectations are created by the people in it, the men and the women, the children some of them will be raising. Everyone in society has a responsibility to challenge stupid stereotypes.

Neither are compulsory. I have no issues with lazy men as I'd never choose to live with one.

What if they turned lazy after you married them? Or what if there were 5 men left in the world and 4 of them were lazy?!

@lazylinguist

If however, I was to go part time or become a SAHM, it would make more sense for me to do the majority of the housework as I would have more time to do so.

Yes, but the trouble with this seemingly perfectly logical approach is that it fails to take into account that it still so very rarely happens the other way around. How often do fathers step back from their (perhaps very promising or valuable) careers to become SAHDs, take on virtually all the domestic load, only to find they are still doing it all years later, possibly alongside an undervalued and low-paid job for which they are overqualified?

But like I said, it depends on your lifestyle and life choices. I would rather be the one to step back from my career for a few years (even though I earn more than my DP) because I would treasure those years at home with my children. I wouldn’t then moan that my DP does none of the housework, if it was my choice to take on that role at that stage in my life.

As for you later point about women carrying on the domestic workload but missing out on career, I agree that can often be the case, but I’m lucky that I’m in a job where I won’t miss out on later career opportunities if I take a few years out from it. Obviously if my working hours went back up, I would expect DP to go back to sharing the domestic chores, as we do now.

But it's always a joke that the husband is useless and doesn't do enough.

Anyone who says that is helping to create the next generation of useless, lazy, messy, dirty selfish men. And that’s on both parents.

I would say it’s a coping mechanism though.

There are even so many meme's online about how men can't do housework and can't find stuff in the house etc... so many jokes like Thai around. It makes it worse. It just didn't funny.

*that.. not Thai. Nothing to do with Thai..

He does the cooking as I find it overwhelming and I cannot flavour into food, God Knows I've tried. He also does the food shop and has done most of the childcare from birth. His working hours suit the school day better, whereas I work shifts. He does the DIY too. I clean, launder, and do the family admin.

I do most of the housework and nigh on all of the cooking in my house. DH is one of those men for who it just never occurs to him to get the hoover out and even if I remind him to switch the dishwasher on when I'm out of an evening he ALWAYS forgets. Drives me absolutely potty.

But, he does so much other stuff. He does more with the kids, he will always do the school run when hes not in the office, he does the garden and cars and really is a proper decent bloke.

I can get over being the only one to vacuum in exchange for having someone who picks up lots of slack elsewhere. (Actually thinking about it, he does vacuum the stairs as I have a bad back. It's just that it needs pointing out to him to do it that's annoying)

What if they turned lazy after you married them? Or what if there were 5 men left in the world and 4 of them were lazy?!

Them I'd leave/choose to stay single just as I do now 🤷‍♀️. Not all women need a man and they certainly don't need to live with one. Plenty women have happy live out relationships, it's certainly the only type I would consider. Statistically women are happier single.

@nonaomi

There are even so many meme's online about how men can't do housework and can't find stuff in the house etc... so many jokes like Thai around. It makes it worse. It just didn't funny.

Similar with women and DIY and cars.

My brother
Single man
Lives in nice flat in London

It’s.... ok but not even a fraction of how clean I’d want it. Or I suspect many women

And yet if he moves in with a female, it’s suddenly grossly unfair and sexist if he doesn’t start doing housework to an extent that is equal to her standards

@Egghead81 no. It's grossly unfair if he stops doing any housework and expects her to do it..

Also, re cleaners (and I employ a cleaner when I can), wtf gender do you think your cleaners are? Take a wild guess in the dark: they are women! Most (by far the majority of them) of them are women! And why? Were these women born with an innate love of cleaning our dirty gross houses?

The point is, as a society, we are conditioned (yeah yeah yeah, I know it was your "choice" to become a SAHM, I mean everybody else, not you, who are special and make your choices free of any other influence or social structure and conditioning) to see women+domestic labour go hand-in-hand, like bacon and eggs, like Rolls and Royce.

And this is to everybody's detriment, both men, women and children. Except to those top male income-earners.

So for all the posters saying we shouldn't be blaming women for this how do we change it then? I simply refuse to live like that and my friends refuse to live like that. So I can't see this from any other perspective than my own. Frankly, I feel if other women choose to either marry these men or stay with one who became like that after marriage/kids then they can hardly blame society since they are perpetuating it all by reinforcing those old stereotypes. How can you help people who don't help themselves?

My DH and I had the same jobs and therefore the same hours and income but lost count of the times I was asked by women at work if he "helped" me with the housework. He never got asked if I "helped" him and I was never asked this by men. It fucking infuriates me that the women we worked with acted like I should be falling at his feet with gratitude for him to do what I expected any man to do. I strongly feel if we are to change this it has to come from us.

YANBU.
Though having said that, some women do make martyrs of themselves over housework - everything having to be shiny-clean all the time.
A bit of dust and mess never killed anyone. But judging by some of the clean-freak posts on MN, you’d think that not going over the whole house every day with vacuum, duster and Zoflora, and not instantly washing anything that’s touched human skin for 2 minutes, was the 8th deadly sin.
I blame Mrs Hinch. For some of it, anyway.

[quote nonaomi]@Egghead81 no. It's grossly unfair if he stops doing any housework and expects her to do it.. [/quote]
Are we talking literally none?!

In many cases men do do some, similar to when then lived alone.
But it’s deemed grossly unfair that they don’t suddenly adjust to their partners higher standards

@Evelight

Also, re cleaners (and I employ a cleaner when I can), wtf gender do you think your cleaners are? Take a wild guess in the dark: they are women! Most (by far the majority of them) of them are women! And why? Were these women born with an innate love of cleaning our dirty gross houses?

The point is, as a society, we are conditioned (yeah yeah yeah, I know it was your "choice" to become a SAHM, I mean everybody else, not you, who are special and make your choices free of any other influence or social structure and conditioning) to see women+domestic labour go hand-in-hand, like bacon and eggs, like Rolls and Royce.

And this is to everybody's detriment, both men, women and children. Except to those top male income-earners.

The overwhelmingly majority of street cleaners and refuse collectors are... men

We can't change it, because we can't dictate how people run their homes. We can only choose what we personally are willing to tolerate, and we can bring our boys up to believe that household chores are their job as much as girls'/women's job. But people who do believe it's women's job won't do that. And many others (like me) will try to instill a belief in equality belied by a pretty traditional division of labour in their own homes.