What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

@Diverseopinions

Ok, so if the staff have noticed a pupil smells, why is that child still smelling? Why aren't the pastoral leads working with the family and inviting the child to shower at school before class, and organising clean clothes for them?

If it's just a slight, different smell, not a symptom of neglect smell, then the kids have got to learn to put up with people presenting differently. They are going to need to travel on public transport, as adults, and work with many others in the workplace, some of whom might emit a distinctive, but not absolutely overpowering odour.

I’m so confused by these threads... I’d bet dollars to donuts that some of the same posters who are bleating on about kids being mean and knowing that they should somehow intrinsically know all of these things like they will have to encounter different smells in the world are the same ones who are the first to claim that young adults aren’t really responsible for their actions because their brains are are still developing.

All kids are are both good hearted and bratty monsters. They are learning how to get along in a complex social society. What sets them off, or makes them turn on each other is not rational on an adult level.

Guess what?! every single person reading or commenting was the same way at a young age, you can claim otherwise but if you had a falling out with a friend as a kid, I can guarantee that it was over something stupid that would leave you shaking your head as an adult at your ridiculous child self.

Problems with boys seem short lived. Tgey either are friends folowing day, or move on. Girls can be downright unkind at times. On the odd occasion maybe there is something about the 'left out' one that causes the issues, but from my experience as a primary teacher it usually isnt the cause. We often found it was a power/fear issue. Call them ABand C. A says something to/about B, which child C goes along with because if they dont then A might start on them. Actually when B & C play together rhey get on really well. With hindsight some of the kids who were A probably had their own issues going on and putting others down/upsetting them made them feel better about themselves.
My niece had this with a large group of friends all the way through scjool. They wete constantly falling out / bickering /making up etc. It stopped after the disastrous holiday abroad(at 18!) when they finally broke off into true small friendships which she has retained for 20yrs.

I think a lot of it comes from some kids being more socially mature than other kids. The 'childish' ones - the ones who aren't allowed to play Fortnite, who have a 7pm bedtime, who don't realise not to admit to their friends that they sleep with a teddy bear, who still get taken to soft play at weekends age 8, that sort of thing, they're at risk of being picked on a bit.

Can you invite them around and so you can see for yourself the dynamic?

I used to be quite nosey about my kids friendships, and would intervene more than most! Either by ‘redirecting’ any nastiness, or saying ‘that’s not nice’ or having a word with my kid afterwards and get them to open up to me, so they’d have someone to offload too.

I think kids left alone to play too much do sometimes get quite unkind - but really quickly do learn if there is any adult giving some quiet but good input every now and then. Not standing over them. Just noticing really!

@Saltinesandcoffeecups But SonnyWinds is a secondary teacher and the OP is talking about 7 year olds. 14 year olds will exclude for very different reasons to 7 year olds. I've taught lower KS2 for years and just think it's completely inaccurate. @cipot's observation about power fits so much better with my experience.

My normally kind little boy did this to someone in his class when younger. We talked a lot and I tried to help him understand how the other child felt.. From what I can tell it stemmed from my son feeling suffocated, feeling forced to be with someone who refused to give him space while consistently spoiling games. Weirdly Rey are good friends now as teens

In my experience the ‘list’ upthread is accurate and also primary teachers would see these ‘different’ children as ‘over sensitive’ & ‘highly strung’. Also primary teachers would subconsciously (?) want to align with the primary parents who were popular, ‘useful’ & powerful. Human nature I guess (?)

Sadly, I see this group dynamic play out with adult women too, a need to exclude the ‘odd’ or ‘different’? If you are the woman that others mark out routinely for ridicule how can you project strength and learn to counter it?

My DS would exclude himself from groups because sometimes he would just want time by himself. He would wander off, and then sometimes the group would exclude him without thinking.

Another boy in his school would be excluded because he was a very spoilt, very difficult child to be around, with parents who have always taken his side, even when he was completely in the wrong. He made up stories about other children, and their families, and would hit, kick and push the other children. Never any consequences for his actions, and in one case, his parents started an argument with the parents of the other child and the school that the other child shouldn't have been standing where he was. Any consequences at school would be argued against by his parents, trivialised, 'the school are wrong', the teacher's a twat, or the family of the other child involved would be personally attacked by spreading stories, reporting to police, social services or whoever. He's in his late teens now, and by all accounts, still difficult, and quite horrible.

DP's DD (7) has recently started feeling excluded, and from what we've gathered, it seems to be because she told them that she was better than them. She's better at schoolwork, better at homework, better at sports, and she struggles with children not doing what she wants. Everything is fine as long as everyone plays the game she wants to play, but all hell breaks loose if they want to play something else, or don't play in the way she wants them to. She also tends to tell the teacher on them, with quite a bit of exaggeration. She's a very anxious child though, and seems to feel under pressure to perform academically beyond her capabilities, which makes her more anxious. I think she feels that she has to control every part of her environment, and other children don't always want to go along with that.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Oh my gosh, what a horrible, victim blaming list!

Not at all. The PP isn't blaming anyone, just telling what actually happens .

The irony of a thread about exclusion and bullying being full of adult women bullying.

Read the thread OP and you will see the reasons for exclusion and bullying throughout: differing opinion group together and belittle them, differing level of education attempt to put all humiliate them for their grammatical failing. Your answer and solution is here in this thread not in the words people have said but in their responses to what others have said.

Because their brains aren’t developed fully yet

I reckon @SonnyWinds has got it bang on to be honest. It doesn't mean that she agrees with those views, she was simply answering OP's question! It's like blaming a prison guard for making observations on inmates 😆.

OP can't change the difficult upbringing or issues a bully is going through. There will always be bullies. A list of reasons bullying happens is useful for anyone that wants to reduce their chances of being targeted.

Bullying and exclusion are obviously horrible, but we won't be able to do anything constructive about them if we insist on false narratives on why they happen to make us feel better.

SonnyWinds clearly doesn't think anything on that list makes it OK to bully another child. She's just reporting back on what these kids would say if you asked them. If we don't know why they're doing it, or if we insist that the problem is really just that they are inherently bad people at age 14 when it really is a bit more nuanced than that, then we've got no hope of addressing the issue.

Obviously it's to do with the bullies' thought processes and own situations too. And of course it's not OK! But it doesn't help anyone to pretend it happens in a vacuum or that only "better" kids are victims. That latter idea can be extremely harmful, not least because it means the bullying of kids who aren't "perfect victims" can get overlooked.

Some posters are really lacking in comprehension skills. Someone asked what are generally the reasons why certain dc areexcluded, @SonnyWinds wrote a list of all the reasons she has come across as a teacher. Cue pearl clutching and screams of basically how nasty Sonny is plus ‘thank God you’re not my dc’s teacher’ . What is wrong with people?

For what it’s worth, Sonny is correct. I’ve definitely come across the, ‘they smell’ reason before and many of the others aren’t that far fetched. Infact, many of those reasons are the same reasons why even adults exclude each other! She’s boring, (not life & soul of the party), she fancies my DH (DH smiled in her direction), she eats weird food (she eats healthy food e.g Couscous), she’s a nasty gossip etc etc.

Sonny’s list is 100% correct.

@Aliceandthemarchhare

sonny

In my experience it’s just something kids do. I’m not saying it’s right but it doesn’t have anything to do with smelling bad!

I disagree

'Smelling bad' is not an uncommon reason that kids don't want to play with others. It doesn't mean it's THE reason the op or her daughter were/are excluded.

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.

1. They smell bad.
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
5. They can't keep secrets
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
7. They eat weird food
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.

10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

This is a horrible list and simply reiterates the reasons children might give for excluding someone. It shows a significant lack of insight on the teacher’s part. In reality, relationships between children, particularly girls and particularly teenage girls, are subtle and complex. Allegiances and friendships shift over time and are affected by the degrees of emotional and physical maturity and developing interests as well as individual external factors. Girls who stand our for some reason - very shy, very outgoing, sporty, very clever, very pretty or the opposite - are more likely to be excluded more often because they simply don’t fit in as well. One of the more interesting things about teaching is watching friendship groups and relationships develop over time and being able to intervene discreetly on a child’s behalf when things go wrong for them.

That list is the horrible truth, kids can be horrible! No amount of slagging off the woman that wrote it makes it untrue.
I think some people are a bit naive on here.
Also, given the amount of parents on mumsnet, a lot of people on here will be parents to a bully. Which is just statistics.

There exists a persistent idea that bullies are just jealous because the victim obviously outshines them in some way.

I'm sure it's true sometimes, but not very often.

I was picked on for at least the last two years of primary school and a good chunk of secondary. Mostly within my larger friendship group and mostly by boys. So not quite the same circumstances. It WAS because I smelt. I had huge body odour problems because I needed probably a much better deodorant than my mother could afford. And because she was too busy as a single parent to 3 to notice. And because I had a lot of hair on my upper lip. And I think because I'd lost so much confidence from previous bullying that I was an easy target all round.

Children do like to play with power. It's part of their development at lots of stages. Look at toddlers! Lots of that list resonates with me.

I think it is more about luck and at primary school who you happen to be in a class with. In infant school my DD was excluded quite a bit as one friend was possessive with her and ruined her chances of developing friendships with others. She changed schools and is actually pretty popular (at the moment). She is definitely not a conformist, she's creative and pursues things that interest her- to the point of not caring whether others like it or not. She has many friends wanting to take part in her initiatives and ideas so I don't believe you have to be a sheep to not be excluded. I don't think that list is a particularly useful reference point to avoid exclusion as IMO a) it is really just highlighting that the 'conventional' is the solution and b) It is important to foster individuality IMO as that will be more beneficial to your happiness in the long run.

I think the list on this thread maybe relevant for the first years in secondary and be more relevant in certain regions of the country where conservative attitudes and conformity are important.

I mean in my area, 8 would not be too old to go to soft play, at 7 (the age of the OP's child) children around here are still considered quite young,.for example, in year 3 they celebrated the author Lauren Child(?) And had to write about Charlie and Lola. They also watched the Cbeebies cartoon in the school. Another year 3 class looked at what they liked about The Gruffalo and went to see a stage performance as a school trip. We are not talking pre teen stuff or even dipping a toe in it at 7/8.

@shouldistop

Why do people think that sonny agrees with the things she's observed?

.ask why don't you play with her at school, her response - 'oh she's weird'

So your daughter is doing some 'leaving out' as well then?

No, she's not, the girl she said that about (which I've already addressed was not okay) has a group of friends. I asked my daughter why she didn't join in with her group of friends and that's when she made that comment.

1. They smell bad.
Can't someone explain this and help support with offering solutions to stop this happening?
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
Who decides what's too much or too little talking? And why not say, hey, let everyone else have a turn to talk! And who is the 'were' police, really? Don't we have freedom of speech in this country?
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
So should be pulled up about it, not allowed to get away with it. Given a chance to turn it around with the full knowledge that if they don't, the consequence will be no friends?
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
They can't help who their parents are! What about commiserating with them, and inviting them to your house, not going to theirs?
5. They can't keep secrets
So be friends but don't share secrets with them. Tell them why, so they can turn it around if they want to be in the know!
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
Pull them up about it each time, and explain how that's not cool, give them a chance to stop being such a prick or they'll end up with no friends. But then again, isn't all fair in love and war? Just because you fancy a boy doesn't mean she can't as well!
7. They eat weird food
Who is the self appointed food police?
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
What happened to freedom of choice and being your own person?
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.
So why not see it as she has good taste wanting to be around you and include her?
10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited.
Then explain clearly, people usually understand number limitations
11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out.
So if someone explains it to her, maybe she will have agency in it and be able to decide: how important is it what people call me? Or is there a way to ask people nicely? And what about people respecting her preference snd actually calling Steph Stephanie since it's her name?!
12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen.
What about tolerating other people and telling them how it impacts on you negatively if it's that bad?
13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble.
Maybe don't get into trouble then you won't get called out on it?! Or maybe see it as they're going to end up being a police officer snd are getting plenty of practice in. Or maybe realise they do it out of fear of being seen as part of the trouble-makers and are desperate to make it clear they're not. What's wrong with being nice to a teacher, who, after all, is a human, doncha know!
14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc).
So how about showing care and compassion for those weaker than us? Isn't that everything that's wrong in society?
15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school
So then show them! Or find another ways to work around it by, I dunno, old fashioned landline call or arranging to meet the old fashioned way, when you're in person?
16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
So what about sometimes talking about your stuff and sometimes talking about theirs? If you don't have a single thing in common it would naturally fall apart anyway...

I think achoo should include relationships classes to teach children how to respond to this list in ways that make humans proud of being human, not pack animals!

*school