What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.

1. They smell bad.
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
5. They can't keep secrets
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
7. They eat weird food
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.

10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

I hope you never taught my DDs. You sound as horrible as the girls doing the excluding and presumably were one of them when you were ar school.

Groups of 3 aren’t good. Kids often get into an “exclude or be excluded yourself” mindset. Think about a group of adults bitching about someone in their group. Half the time when they’re doing it they’re just relieved it’s not them that’s the victim. Unfortunately it’s one of the nastier parts of human nature.

Bring your daughter up to be kind and to try and include others as much as possible. She’ll find her own tribe in time. This particular friendship group probably isn’t it.

I attended a "mental health in kids" talk at our primary school where the speaker said the concept of "best friend" can actually be quite destructive to mental health in girls specifically - as their worlds can collapse when they fall out with that best friend, or they get stuck in a vicious cycle of being on/off with that friend. He didn't put it that simplistically, but I thought the general point was interesting. My daughter is in first year of primary and talks about "my best friend" as she's picked up that language at school. I usually say something like "you know you can have lots of best friends?" Generally though, her school is huge on inclusiveness, appreciating differences between people etc. I tell her to keep an eye out for anyone lonely in the playground to ask them to join in play etc. I'm under no illusions that she actually has enough awareness to do that consistently, but I do like to think talking that way to her from age 4 will lead to her having a more inclusive mentality as a teenager/adult. I've never really been down with the "kids/teenagers are organically mean/bitchy" perspective.

@LockedFarAway

1. They smell bad. Can't someone explain this and help support with offering solutions to stop this happening? 2. They talk too much or say weird things. Who decides what's too much or too little talking? And why not say, hey, let everyone else have a turn to talk! And who is the 'were' police, really? Don't we have freedom of speech in this country? 3. They're nasty and say nasty things. So should be pulled up about it, not allowed to get away with it. Given a chance to turn it around with the full knowledge that if they don't, the consequence will be no friends? 4. Their parents are invasive/controlling They can't help who their parents are! What about commiserating with them, and inviting them to your house, not going to theirs? 5. They can't keep secrets So be friends but don't share secrets with them. Tell them why, so they can turn it around if they want to be in the know! 6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies). Pull them up about it each time, and explain how that's not cool, give them a chance to stop being such a prick or they'll end up with no friends. But then again, isn't all fair in love and war? Just because you fancy a boy doesn't mean she can't as well! 7. They eat weird food Who is the self appointed food police? 8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair. What happened to freedom of choice and being your own person? 9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot. So why not see it as she has good taste wanting to be around you and include her? 10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. Then explain clearly, people usually understand number limitations 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. So if someone explains it to her, maybe she will have agency in it and be able to decide: how important is it what people call me? Or is there a way to ask people nicely? And what about people respecting her preference snd actually calling Steph Stephanie since it's her name?! 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. What about tolerating other people and telling them how it impacts on you negatively if it's that bad? 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. Maybe don't get into trouble then you won't get called out on it?! Or maybe see it as they're going to end up being a police officer snd are getting plenty of practice in. Or maybe realise they do it out of fear of being seen as part of the trouble-makers and are desperate to make it clear they're not. What's wrong with being nice to a teacher, who, after all, is a human, doncha know! 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). So how about showing care and compassion for those weaker than us? Isn't that everything that's wrong in society? 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school So then show them! Or find another ways to work around it by, I dunno, old fashioned landline call or arranging to meet the old fashioned way, when you're in person? 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. So what about sometimes talking about your stuff and sometimes talking about theirs? If you don't have a single thing in common it would naturally fall apart anyway...

You are applying adult thought processes to children. It also reads as if you are trying to explain to SonnyWinds why kids shouldn't use these excuses to bully, but I really think she knows that.

This behaviour is called relational aggression.
It is bullying and your Dd doesn't have to accept it.

When my daughters started to experience it and see others experience it I strongly encouraged them to call it out.
I told them to play with other children and not give those girls the power to upset her.
It's their choice to behave badly and hers to be hurt by it.

Twos company ,threes a crowd .So true .Girls do seem to be the worst for this .I do think that maybe the other girl may be also excluded as well sometimes .Its good that she has her cousins as well .Boys dont seem to have these same sort of issues really

But you are acting like a primary school bully - you, and quite a few other posters have wilfully misunderstood a perfectly sensible thing someone has written and used it to accuse her of being a terrible person while making yourself look good. Honestly, it's completely clear that this Sonnywinds is just listing reasons she has been given by bullies or has observed as the stated reasons for bullying, in her time as a teacher. To make the huge leap of assuming she agreed with these reasons is like watching David Attenborough narrate a programme about chimps and then tell everyone that Sir David is a terrible man who believes in mating with as many females as possible in order to maintain his alpha status.

Btw, my comment above was referring to one of the many posters who were jumping down Sonnywinds throat . . . . . don't know why it didn't include the 'quote' I had tried to link to.

Is your DD immature for her age? Maybe the other girls act their age and feel that your DD is “different” as in she acts much younger? Like PP have said, three is a tricky number as two of the friends will inevitably be closer. You can’t force someone to be your friend. I’m sorry your DD is experiencing this. I hope she makes new friends instead of following these girls she desperately wants to be close to.

@LockedFarAway

1. They smell bad. Can't someone explain this and help support with offering solutions to stop this happening? 2. They talk too much or say weird things. Who decides what's too much or too little talking? And why not say, hey, let everyone else have a turn to talk! And who is the 'were' police, really? Don't we have freedom of speech in this country? 3. They're nasty and say nasty things. So should be pulled up about it, not allowed to get away with it. Given a chance to turn it around with the full knowledge that if they don't, the consequence will be no friends? 4. Their parents are invasive/controlling They can't help who their parents are! What about commiserating with them, and inviting them to your house, not going to theirs? 5. They can't keep secrets So be friends but don't share secrets with them. Tell them why, so they can turn it around if they want to be in the know! 6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies). Pull them up about it each time, and explain how that's not cool, give them a chance to stop being such a prick or they'll end up with no friends. But then again, isn't all fair in love and war? Just because you fancy a boy doesn't mean she can't as well! 7. They eat weird food Who is the self appointed food police? 8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair. What happened to freedom of choice and being your own person? 9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot. So why not see it as she has good taste wanting to be around you and include her? 10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. Then explain clearly, people usually understand number limitations 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. So if someone explains it to her, maybe she will have agency in it and be able to decide: how important is it what people call me? Or is there a way to ask people nicely? And what about people respecting her preference snd actually calling Steph Stephanie since it's her name?! 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. What about tolerating other people and telling them how it impacts on you negatively if it's that bad? 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. Maybe don't get into trouble then you won't get called out on it?! Or maybe see it as they're going to end up being a police officer snd are getting plenty of practice in. Or maybe realise they do it out of fear of being seen as part of the trouble-makers and are desperate to make it clear they're not. What's wrong with being nice to a teacher, who, after all, is a human, doncha know! 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). So how about showing care and compassion for those weaker than us? Isn't that everything that's wrong in society? 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school So then show them! Or find another ways to work around it by, I dunno, old fashioned landline call or arranging to meet the old fashioned way, when you're in person? 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion. So what about sometimes talking about your stuff and sometimes talking about theirs? If you don't have a single thing in common it would naturally fall apart anyway...

I think you’ve missed the point. I don’t think sonny is putting this list forward as a list of things to look for so you can bully them. She’s saying these are reasons kids give for being unkind to others. Kids just won’t think the way you do. I teach y5/6 and I think lots of these are bang on. Unkind, horrible? Yes. Accurate? Unfortunately still yes.

Dealing with girls friendship issues is the worst part of teaching for me. Some days it genuinely makes me want to leave teaching. So much time spent investigating why people have fallen out, so many lies, back covering, unkind kids playing the victim, and I never know how to resolve it, all whilst simultaneously teaching maths or whatever.

@CutieBear

Is your DD immature for her age? Maybe the other girls act their age and feel that your DD is “different” as in she acts much younger? Like PP have said, three is a tricky number as two of the friends will inevitably be closer. You can’t force someone to be your friend. I’m sorry your DD is experiencing this. I hope she makes new friends instead of following these girls she desperately wants to be close to.

No she's actually very mature for her age I would say.

Just not fitting in, for whatever reason that may be at the time. I had the sort of parents who wouldn't let me dress in what was fashionable at the time (well do you want to be like everyone else - YES! - I don't think that is so much of an issue now though, kids seem to wear what they want to a lot more and they certainly have wide musical interests whereas we had to listen to what was playing at the time, or we were "square" - I got picked on for listening to the Carpenters, for example. Although I wasn't really that interested in fashion anyway.

I got picked on for having my hair highlighted. And I would have got picked on for not having my hair highlighted. It went on for years. Everyone else was allowed to have that awful sun-in their hair, but I wasn't (by the kids, not my mother, who actually encouraged it).

I look back now and see that there were things I said and did which were a bit cringe, but I'd like to think we all look back and think "ouch", not just me! But maybe it was just me.

I think Sonny's list is very true and not nasty at all - simply reflects reality.

In my experience of groups of three girls, there is never only one that is left out, it always seems that there’s one girl that the other two fawn over, and then those two take it in turns to be the one left out.

I have no idea how this dynamic seems such a regular thing though, and even less idea of what the answer to it could be.

I found an issue was some teachers agreed with what’s on that ‘list’ and were complicit on some level, raising eyebrows at the oversensitivity of the child etc. What’s listed is what’s observed through the teacher’s lens & their interpretation to a point, which is revealing/interesting in itself. I do understand the teacher is telling it ‘like it is’...

What do you make of the comment on a recent report for my youngest after a tough term: ‘Tartan junior is a quaint child’...

If the teacher sees T Jr as a bit ‘odd’ the children will pick this up & smell the ‘weakness’...

I also think in some areas parents are incredibly controlling about their kids' friends and stop them being friends with kids they don't approve of, or if they don't like their parents - I don't know if this was what Sonny meant - but with ds' year group it went on well into secondary school!

I found an issue was some teachers agreed with what’s on that ‘list’ and were complicit on some level, raising eyebrows at the oversensitivity of the child etc

I also agree with this - teachers often don't help and actually facilitate the bullying by victim blaming.

every single person reading or commenting was the same way at a young age, you can claim otherwise but if you had a falling out with a friend as a kid, I can guarantee that it was over something stupid that would leave you shaking your head as an adult at your ridiculous child self

there's a difference between falling out with people from time to time and being excluded or bullied on a regular basis though

@saltinesandcoffeecups

Honestly, it’s no wonder some posters here were picked on as kids if they can’t figure out that *@SonnyWinds*’s list was based on observations and not her opinion as a teacher. Perhaps they accused their friends of awful things because they got the wrong idea.

How utterly bizarre that anyone would think that Sonny agreed with any of these things.

Yes, I read it as a list of observations on the mindset of those doing the excluding. Perhaps if the list had had inverted commas around a few of the descriptions, it might have been more obvious to some posters that they were not the opinions of @Sonnywinds' own opinions of the excluded pupils.

Oops, slightly mangled my last sentence there...

OP do you have any way of knowing whether this is happening to your daughter more than to the other girls in the group- Usually these things are cyclical especially in a group of 3. In my experience teachers pick up on power imbalances in friendships and let parents know.

I remember one girl in my class who was excluded by everyone for basically the whole of primary school. At the time I definitely thought she was weird and no fun, but looking back I have no idea why. We all thought she was a bit thick but I'm sure it wasn't true - and was no excuse anyway. I can't remember anything she ever actually did to cause anyone to not be friends with her. It was just girl groupthink (all girls school) that someone had to be at the bottom of the heap and we picked her.

I was shy and "nice" at school, so I was often paired up with her or put in her group by a teacher because I wouldn't be actively mean. I was terrified to be associated with her because I thought it meant I'd end up having to be her friend and everyone else would treat me like we all treated her. I remember she reported me to the teacher for bullying her in Yr 5 and I had a talking to. I'm sure I wouldn't have been shouting insults or anything, though I'll admit I can't remember - most likely to be me explicitly telling her she couldn't play with me and to leave me alone. I remember at the time feeling outraged because everyone else was so much meaner and I was only saying what we were all thinking. I honestly felt like I was justified in "protecting myself" because I knew I was such a dweeb I was an easy target for the merry-go-round of being the one left out.

She was the only one in the year not to move on to the senior school. I hope she got a fresh start somewhere else. I tried to look her up a while ago because I wanted to apologise but couldn't find her online.

@Hankunamatata

I have boys but girls seem to do this way more than boys in primary and it's a bigger problem. Niece is having this, we just encouraging her to play with others who treat you well as someone who leaves you out on purpose- are they really a friend

Yes, in my primary class there was a pair of twins who were toxic. They split the girls in the class into two gangs, A’s gang and B’s gang. Neither A nor B wanted me in their gang. I had one friend but she was in B’s gang and often her desire to be part of the gang overcame her desire to be with me so I was on my own at playtimes.

I was excluded because I was shy and not into boys or makeup. Unfortunately once a child has been pushed out they become a target, and others will mistreat them simply to reinforce their own social status. It’s usually not the popular kids who exclude others - they have no need to reinforce their own status. It’s the kids who are on the edge of the group, who are barely “in” - they will push someone else “out” in order to reinforce their own “in” status.

@Goldenbear

I mean in my area, 8 would not be too old to go to soft play, at 7 (the age of the OP's child) children around here are still considered quite young,.for example, in year 3 they celebrated the author Lauren Child(?) And had to write about Charlie and Lola. They also watched the Cbeebies cartoon in the school. Another year 3 class looked at what they liked about The Gruffalo and went to see a stage performance as a school trip. We are not talking pre teen stuff or even dipping a toe in it at 7/8.

You tell yourself that.