What makes kids exclude other kids?

[garnierfruit]

When I was growing up I had a core group of friends however, depending on the day I would often be excluded from the group. Not allowed to play at break time, calling me names, not including me in sleepovers etc. We would always make up just for it to happen the next week yet I maintained that those were my friends and went through it until I started secondary school. I still remember being left out and it stung like a bitch.

It now seems to be happening to my daughter who is 7 (almost 8) in primary 3, in this friendship 'group' it seems to be her and two other girls and periodically the two other girls will leave her out, fall out with her etc. However, she does still have play dates with one of them and they get on fine during that.

I wonder if i am projecting my experiences on to my daughter but more frequently than not she will come home from school and say, 'me and friend had a fall out but I don't want to talk about it' so I never get details and it is always the same friend, she doesn't fall out with anyone else. Whenever I suggest playing with another group of kids she maintains that this girl is her best friend.

What causes these issues in specifically girls? Is it an issue with the person that's being left out? Or an issue with the person leaving them out? Do ALL children go through this? I just find it strange that we've both had the same type of experience.

[quote changeyourusername1]**@Butwasitherdriveway* ignore @GreyhoundG1rl*, she's been at it all day. [/quote]
Thanks.

I hope she will jump on the many other people since me!

@BackforGood

It is never what someone does that is 'wrong'. The list of 'faults' always lies with the excluder, the harasser, the abuser.

Don't be ridiculous.

I choose my friends, or choose who I want to spend my time with, because I like that person / those people.
I choose to not spend time with people who are aggressive. People who are racist. People who are sexist. People who can't complete a sentence without f-ing and blinding. People who think it is funny to make other people feel uncomfortable.

I really don't think that leaves me ""at fault, for choosing not to invite someone whose company I don't enjoy to something.
What an odd way to look at life

And this is comparable to being nasty to a little girl becauae of what she wears is it?

i think there can be all sorts of reasons. They can be as simple as someone smells funny, or even looks weird or doesnt conform to a particular trend in a very conformist group.

I do think we expect a lot from children to just all get along when theres so many of them in one place all day every day.
Even large workplaces with lots of people tend to be full of bullying as people are bad at managing how to coexist with people that rub them up the wrong way. The reasons for it might change, but school is particularly bad for it, as the kids cant do anything about it and are forced to be there.
I definitely think that kids pick up on differences though and also some kids feel excluded and picked on even when they actually do have friends, but not necessarily the ones they really wanted.

I think Sonnys list was actually pretty realistic. It was clearly a response to why kids get excluded, not what SHE didnt like about them.

My six year old was bullied at primary school in for a while by the two children he most liked and I took him to the children's counselling service because he was getting really upset. They said sometimes unhappy children meet a well loved child and "want to knock the bloom off them" because they can't bear it. I thought it was a really good, non blaming explanation. I spoke to the teacher and aired my concern, she deliberately paired my son with other children for activities away from the excluders and without the proximity, the bullying stopped. Good luck - oh, and it's absolutely not your fault!

I've never met a happy bully. There may be reasons why a child is bullied that the bully picks up on, but that's because they're a bully.

Sonny is right. Focus on your own child, you can't change the excluder/bully.

Whether you like it or not, the list is real and not even complete. It's better you, the parent, are aware.

This thread brings back such awful memories, I had a friendship group that excluded me at times, not to victim blame myself but I think I was quite "extra" at times, and maybe just too much (a bit annoying!), and that was their way of dealing with it at that age. There was definitely a bully ringleader though who had a horrific home life. And shamefully I remember the absolute relief when someone else was being excluded instead of me. Ugh my daughter is 6 and I have such dread for her and hope she has a group of friends that don't act like this. I don't know what the answer is.

I think we should be clear that there’s a difference between someone being excluded periodically within their friendship group, and being bullied- malicious, persistence power imbalance intended to harm.
The OP was talking about a friendship group where, in her perception, her DD is left out sometimes, and in turn DD has also expressed that there is a girl that she chooses not to spend time with at school, it’s not so different. (OP incidentally, you may think DD has only said this to you, but there’s every chance the girl is aware, and her mother may be having these same concerns of exclusion about your daughter- you don’t know because your DD, at her age, is not a reliable narrator).
I think getting excluded in a friendship group every now and again happens to most children, and I don’t find it that unusual, I’ve seen it in my school age kids friendship groups… kids get a bit fed up of one another just like adults do. This is all part of them building up their social skill set, sensing these things, taking a step back, finding other people to play with, finding her friends if it starts happening more regularly.

And the irony of how certain posters are being singled out repeatedly on this thread. Leave them alone for god’s sake.

@Butwasitherdriveway - As per the quote box, I was replying to the person that said it is " always the fault of" the person who is excluding the other person. Of course it isn't.

I have no idea about the OP's dd and her friends, obviously, as nobody else on this thread does, but I do know that sometimes people aren't invited to things, or people don't get invited places or included in what is going one sometimes because they aren't nice to be with.

I read the Higher Education threads and also another forum where parents of University students loiter, and, where their young person hasn't been asked to house share with others in 2nd year, the parents always claim the others are 'nasty bullies' and never consider for a minute why the other students wouldn't want to share with their young person. Sometimes the person who isn't being included in things might need to consider having a look at themselves.
Yes, sometimes there are people who exclude who are bullies or are unkind, but it is by no means clear cut and always the case.
It can be the same in the hundreds of threads you get on here about adult friendships and it can be the same with little children. What can't be said is that it is always one way.

[quote BackforGood]**@Butwasitherdriveway* - As per the quote box, I was replying to the person that said it is " always* the fault of" the person who is excluding the other person. Of course it isn't.

I have no idea about the OP's dd and her friends, obviously, as nobody else on this thread does, but I do know that sometimes people aren't invited to things, or people don't get invited places or included in what is going one sometimes because they aren't nice to be with.

I read the Higher Education threads and also another forum where parents of University students loiter, and, where their young person hasn't been asked to house share with others in 2nd year, the parents always claim the others are 'nasty bullies' and never consider for a minute why the other students wouldn't want to share with their young person. Sometimes the person who isn't being included in things might need to consider having a look at themselves.
Yes, sometimes there are people who exclude who are bullies or are unkind, but it is by no means clear cut and always the case.
It can be the same in the hundreds of threads you get on here about adult friendships and it can be the same with little children. What can't be said is that it is always one way.[/quote]
In scenarios like the OP it always is. Your scenario is nothing like that.

Butwasitherdriveway

I say for the third time.
I was replying to the poster who tried to claim that anyone who excludes anyone is "always" at fault. I even quoted using the quote box.

I'm really not sure how I can explain it any other way to you.

Honestly @BackforGood - don’t worry, I think most people get it.

Clearly there are reasons some kids get routinely excluded or picked on, and some don’t. Nobody is justifying those reasons - this latter point seems to be difficult to grasp, for some.

@SonnyWinds

I'm a teacher - I teach secondary so slightly older but here's my experience of reasons why girls would regularly exclude one from the group.

1. They smell bad.
2. They talk too much or say weird things.
3. They're nasty and say nasty things.
4. Their parents are invasive/controlling
5. They can't keep secrets
6. They steal boys (some girls, even in Y7 will pursue any boy they know their friend fancies).
7. They eat weird food
8. They're wearing something embarrassing - usually bright red lipstick or a big flower in their hair.
9. They aren't actually friends with the girl but the girl follows them around a lot.

10. They have a party/event coming up with limited spaces/tickets and this girl isn't invited. 11. She reacts in a funny or dramatic way to being excluded or picked on. I have a student who completely flips out if her name is shortened (like Steph for Stephanie). So her friends do it ALL THE TIME because it's funny that she flips out. 12. She cries at almost nothing or is generally a drama queen. 13. They suck up to teachers or get others in trouble. 14. They're a "weak" child to start with so easy to victimise for a power boost (usually smaller, quieter, skinny etc). 15. They can't use technology or communicate with their friends outside of school 16. They aren't up to date on whatever the hot topic is (a TV show or a YouTube post or a new game etc) so they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

There are way more reasons than this. In my experience, it goes in a circle though. Very rarely is one child excluded and not the others in the group - you just won't notice because you only really acknowledge it happening to you or someone you care about.

Some people think this list is harsh but from memory, reasons I got excluded from a group or another girl did were as ridiculous as :

Refusing to disclose the details of a family emergency
Being dirty/smelly
Not being part of a different activity after school and not knowing the people or the in jokes.
Being one of those kids that is very Hermione Granger and shows off and must be right and make others look foolish
Not being able to take "banter" and stick up for self
Crying all the time
Not being allowed to go to Youth Club
Supporting the wrong football team
Being overweight
Sucking up too much to the teachers
Trying to tag along uninvited with the Mean Girls type group
Not being sporty
Having the wrong bag/trainers/other branded goods
Wearing the same thing two non uniform days running
Accidentally wearing uniform on a non uniform day

And this was THE NINETIES

Fear. Someone starts it as a power trip, everyone else has to join in or else it will be them on the outside. It just reinforces itself as everyone is desperate to be IN "the group" so competes to exclude whoever's out to reinforce their own place

This absolutely. It’s all about establishing a social higherarchy , but it’s worth remembering that children will push boundaries or conform without fully understanding the impact this has on the target of their exclusion.

Sonny’s list provides examples of justifications/reasons children use for these exclusions, but it’s a social phenomenon.

The OP’s DD’s comment about the other girl ‘being weird’ doesn’t necessarily mean that the DD is excluding her. It sounds like this girl has her own friendship group, and could (could!) well be oblivious to the DD’s opinion of her.

But the comment boils down to a simple answer to the OP’s question - why do some kids exclude other kids?

The answer is often as simple as - they just don’t really like them.

I did actually exercise today. It made me hungry. I definitely ate more calories than I burned. If I want to lose weight I specifically avoid exercise because it increases my appetite.

I think the reason so many people have a problem with SonnyWinds list is that while musing why are kids excluded she focused 100% on what was wrong with the excluded child, and didn't give any thought at all as to why the other kids were being unpleasant. If this is her approach to kids in her classroom it is problematic.

^This definitely IMO. There was one girl who constantly targeted me for bullying when I was at school. Now there were reasons why I was a target for bullies (not relevant to this thread), but this girl went to extreme lengths to make my life a misery.

I discovered later that her mum had been suffering from cancer and died. So she was herself coping with her own trauma which I knew nothing about.

SonnyWinds was far too simplistic, which is why she’s had such a negative response on here.

OP’s DD is not being bullied. She is in a friendship group that she’s happy in but where every now and again she gets left out, this is completely different!

Usually kids get excluded or bullied because of the wrong combination of both traits in the victim and the bully. In a school and classroom situation its statistically likely that people will clash and dislike each other on and off.
Its really important to constantly talk to your kids about not being a dick to people you dont like, but some kids also need basic resilience around not being liked and either moving on or defending themselves.

Some parents have their own social issues which dont really help their children fit in either.

School is such an ultra socially tricky environment though. I was bullied a lot and excluded at mine, but I dont entirely blame the people that bullied me either

@BackforGood

Butwasitherdriveway

I say for the third time.
I was replying to the poster who tried to claim that anyone who excludes anyone is "always" at fault. I even quoted using the quote box.

I'm really not sure how I can explain it any other way to you.

I know. But your point wasn't comparable.

@SaturdayRocks

The OP’s DD’s comment about the other girl ‘being weird’ doesn’t necessarily mean that the DD is excluding her. It sounds like this girl has her own friendship group, and could (could!) well be oblivious to the DD’s opinion of her.

But the comment boils down to a simple answer to the OP’s question - why do some kids exclude other kids?

The answer is often as simple as - they just don’t really like them.

Not true

Growing up one member of our friendship group was awful, she always singled out someone that she wouldn't speak to, refused to play with, etc. We were all on the receiving end of her treatment. Everyone felt really uncomfortable about it but no-one really called her out on it even though the rest of us all got on very well. When she wasn't there the atmosphere was so much nicer. She only seemed to enjoy a horrible atmosphere, so bizarre. We were primary school age, we lived on the same street and our parents were all friends. Her sibling who was also part of the same group was lovely and could not have been more different. Once in secondary school we all had new friendship groups and I was never in the same social circle as her again. She has never changed, and from what I hear sounds like a very miserable adult.

Thanks @SaturdayRocks

OP’s DD is not being bullied. She is in a friendship group that she’s happy in but where every now and again she gets left out, this is completely different!

Well reminded Lifeaintalwaysempty
This thread has people answering very different questions from the original post - which is fine, if everyone reads the thread and makes it clear what they are replying to.

I also think that there is a mindset - which seems to pop its head up on the relationship boards a lot, particularly the ones where posters are angry with one of their friends - where people seem to think they "own" friends. There are often threads where people get upset because Friend A and Friend B did something without them, and there are always cries of 'excluding' them. Whereas in my life, just because I happen to be friends with both A and B, that doesn't mean that either I am reliant on them, nor do I expect them to be reliant on me. I don't have an issue if 2 friends go out (or in the dcs' case - go to play) as just two people sometimes. There are lots of reasons where that can happen, without it meaning another person has "been excluded". It just means on that day, they weren't involved.
Which takes us back to the concept of encouraging everyone to have lots of friends and not this "best friend" nonsense which then somehow relegates everyone else to being a 'lesser friend'.

My dd's experience is as Redact says. One or two girls in a wider group, colluding to exclude one. This isn't them deciding to go to the shops and not inviting somebody. The DC being excluded would come into school, having done or said nothing, to find their friendship group would not speak to them, would not allow them to stand near them or play and hurled insults at them throughout the school day. It could go on for a few says or weeks or months before one of these girls would change the focus to another girl in the group. They didn't dislike the excluded DC. They allowed them back into the group. These girls like to punish others when they've done nothing wrong. It's a power trip and is common, particularly in junior age girls. Dd managed to break the pattern by standing by the currently excluded DC. They went off to secondary and were thankfully put in a different class to these two girls. Both continue to behave like this years later. I would say with both there is something lacking in them. The damage it does to other DC's confidence and anxiety levels is huge. There is no question in my mind that it is bullying. I'm very thankful dd was put in another form at secondary where she has a large group of friends who don't behave like this.